Missed Slam

[eagles123]

[hv=pc=n&s=skj9832hk9754dcj8&n=sqt654hajda986ca6&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=pp(thoughts%3F)p1sp4dp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

Form of scoring: MP

 

system: 4 card majors weak NT

 

 

any blame here?

 

thanks,

 

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

What do you play 3♥ over 1♠ as by a passed hand ? I probably do pass in second seat.

 

Once N knows S has a lot of major suit cards, his 2 minor suit aces and ♥ Ax are golden.

 

4♠ is a bit lazy over 4♦ AKxxx, xxxx, x, Kxx is perfectly plausible opposite if you don't open this

[chasetb]

1.) I would pass in 2nd seat, unless you have a pre-emptive opening that specifically shows this hand type.

 

2.) I highly recommend that after partner opens in 3rd or 4th seat, that you play fit-showing jumps. You promise at least 4 trump to an honor, and at least 5 cards in the suit shown, to the King or Ace. I usually prefer 2/top 3 or 3/top 5, but with 6-card Spade support I am not even slightly worried about missing a few intermediates in Hearts. We want to force to game, and by bidding 3♥ we get more space to show that diamond shortness/control, and then you should find the slam.

 

3.) North has two things partner won't expect - above minimum values, and a 5-card suit. However, I would be afraid of missing some trump honors (I don't have enough experience with 4-card Majors though). Still, I am likely to bid 4♥, whether it be a cuebid or Last Train. After that, like billw55 I don't know how to proceed.

[billw55]

North has a great hand opposite a splinter, I really think 4♥ should be automatic. Although I am less sure how things will proceed after that.

[mike777]

I don't play unlimited splinters or fit jumps so I can see this is going to be a problem hand if pard opens 1h or 1s in 4th seat. This hand is far too good for a splinter bid. I mean this is an adjusted 5 loser hand after pard opens 1s in 4th seat which will not be a light opening bid.

 

I will open a wk 2spades by south.

 

If forced to pass I guess I would try 5d exclusion after 1s.

[neilkaz]

North has a great hand opposite a splinter, I really think 4♥ should be automatic. Although I am less sure how things will proceed after that.

Yes, north has WAY too much to sign off in 4♠ when a straight forward lower Q is available to show interest.

[MrAce]

South would splinter when holding KJxxxx Kxxx x Jx also, which makes slam ugly. I agree though N has perfect hand to act over splinter.(length in splinter suit and not wasted hcps) 4 ♠ was lousy bid. After all even if S held the hand i constructed, we can make it on ♥ finesse and some luck.(such as no one holding more than 4 hearts or doubleton ♥ holder has stiff ♠ A or void....)

[Cascade]

North has extras and nothing (much) wasted in diamonds. It should be automatic to bid 4♥. This does not commit to slam and partner will only move with something extra which he has.

 

Curiously I am not sure that opening 2♠ will make it easier to get to slam. South has too much to show after that start - maximum values, five card side suit and void. Perhaps 1♠ is better. After which slam should be easily reached. I think it is fairly normal to open light with distribution at these colours.

[Cyberyeti]

North has extras and nothing (much) wasted in diamonds. It should be automatic to bid 4♥. This does not commit to slam and partner will only move with something extra which he has.

 

Curiously I am not sure that opening 2♠ will make it easier to get to slam. South has too much to show after that start - maximum values, five card side suit and void. Perhaps 1♠ is better. After which slam should be easily reached. I think it is fairly normal to open light with distribution at these colours.

 

What would you expect partner to have for the sequence 2♠-2N-4♣/♦/♥ ? If this shows a decent 6/5, reaching the slam should be easy

[MrAce]

I really dont understand the 4♥ bidders. They admit N has a great hand, they have all controls, and they know the response to 4♥ will be 4♠ %99 and they still bid 4♥.

[eagles123]

thanks folks, I was S on this hand. I did think my p's 4S bid was a little negative but the more I looked at it the more i thought I maybe hadn't done my own hand justice.

 

Mr Ace: what are you suggesting instead of 4H?

 

thanks,

 

Eagles

[MrAce]

thanks folks, I was S on this hand. I did think my p's 4S bid was a little negative but the more I looked at it the more i thought I maybe hadn't done my own hand justice.

 

Mr Ace: what are you suggesting instead of 4H?

 

thanks,

 

Eagles

 

 

4 NT rkcb if you decided that you wanna be in slam vs enough keycards.( this is what most people do when they decide that they loved the splinter suit and their hands match well, especially when their hand is above the 11-14 range ) This is the simplest way N can learn about AK of spades, missing most important cards in his hand. Cues are meant for other things depending on auction. Cues indicates the bidder has some problems other than wondering the keycards. Such as fear of losing 2 fast tricks in 1 suit, such as not holding enough keycards in his hand to ask the keycards, such as not knowing what to do when he learns the keycards. If the splinter was not coming from a passed hand and has variable ranges, a cue can be used for mentioning things like "i like the splinter suit but minimum" or vice versa. We have none of those problems, after we decided that our hand has it all vs the diamond splinter.

 

If you really have an allergy to RKCB, or still want your pd to have a say in final decision, then bid 5♠ or something.

 

I don't know if 4♥ was meant as last train or some sort of invitation. But then again how will they control cue in another hand, lets say with AKxxx A AKxx JTx ? Now this is an "auto 4♥ " to me. In case pd holds Qxxx KQJx x Qxxx

 

I just don't get it, what do we expect to hear from pd by bidding 4♥ when we hold all these values and 1st round controls ? how do we expect to learn about spade AK ? Pd can make splinter with Txxx KQxx x KQxx or the hand in OP, or KJxx Jxxx x KQxx or something different. You will see some players play even the 4 level bids as 1st round control, let alone 5 level.

 

Pd, thinking that you are hoping to hear club control, will bid 4♠ with a hand like ATxx KQxx x xxxx, reasonably fearing 5♠ may go down when cuer holds something like KQxxx A Axx QJxx . All 4♥ bidders then will bid 4 NT probably with the OP hand, kindly giving some info to opponents on their way to slam. An info that has almost zero use for our side + less time left for the play at MP.

 

I know cue instead of rkcb is considered as a " 1337 " bidding in forums but imo cueing when there is not much merit to it is as bad as using rkcb when there is not much merit to know how many keycards our side has.

[cherdano]

the response to 4♥ will be 4♠ %99

Why?

[MrAce]

Why?

 

I will not write the 2nd time. Read above.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 Pass is ok, matter of style and agreement

If you have a opening bid to show 65 in the majors, use it, an option is 3NT.

#2 Missing the slam is just live

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

I will not write the 2nd time. Read above.

 

But what do you lose by bidding 4♥ before 4N over 4♠ ? If partner does bid 5♥ or 5♦ as here, you just bid the slam.

[Zelandakh]

I really dont understand the 4♥ bidders. They admit N has a great hand, they have all controls, and they know the response to 4♥ will be 4♠ %99 and they still bid 4♥.

Perhaps they are planning to bid 5♣ over a 4♠ response showing the 2 outside controls?

[MrAce]

Perhaps they are planning to bid 5♣ over a 4♠ response showing the 2 outside controls?

 

Why are they showing ? What is it that they expect pd to learn and know exactly what to do ? Why not asking instead ? Are you telling me they are on their way to show everything except than spades so pd can understand we have problems in trumps ? If so just ask and learn his spades. Where is that rkcb fobia coming from ?

 

 

But what do you lose by bidding 4♥ before 4N over 4♠ ? If partner does bid 5♥ or 5♦ as here, you just bid the slam.

 

What do you gain if you are going to 4 NT over 4♠ anyway ? I could have sympathy if you told me that you would pass over 4♠ thinking pd holds something like AKJx Txxxx void Qxxx but i already wrote above and gave examples why this is gonna cost problems in another hand. I will not be able to stop if pd has this and we are not down yet. But i suppose you would want your pd to bid 5♦ with this and come to slam like me anyway.

 

I also wrote what you will lose by bidding 4♥. Some may even argue that 4 NT after 4♥ when pd did not cooperate, is not rkcb, since we could rkcb the previous round if we wanted to.

You lose by giving road map to opponents, 4♥ or 5♥ will not only give opponents some info but also will give hints about the lead. It may be doubled or even not doubling is a hint. You lose by reducing the time for the declarer play in a MP event, and you torture your pd for no gain. You will sometimes also lose by opening a road to hesitation and legal issues for no gain. For example you bid 4♥ and pd bid 4♠ a little slow, now you have a headache, and a big one trying to explain opponents and TD that you were planning to use 4 NT anyway, when they asked you then why you did not previous round ? You need to protect your pd, your self, from little obstacles like that when the merit of a fancy bidding does not justify taking all these risks and losses.

 

Note that i am not saying the slam i am driving to will be a good one always. But once we decided to move, cueing is not gonna help us investigate and learn efficiently in this hand while same method does not cost in another hand. Basically we should keep it simple and spend our time and focus on the declarer play of our slam.

[gszes]

5d over 4d. The N hand is very good opposite a aplinter but slam is

a poor proposition opposite a minimum p might have as a passed hand.

The 5d bid lets p know we have all the side suits controlled but we have

insufficient values to take over by ourselves and asks them to go to

6 with a really excellent passed hand 4d bid and that having a void

is not sufficient reason to venture to 6 since we have the dia ACE.

 

MrAce points out the many players willing to bid 4h but I feel that

is too important to save that bid (and 5c) for hands that do not have

all the side suits controlled (yet have slam interest).

[mike777]

cuebidding above game level often leads to confusion rather than clarity. :)

 

glad I just take the bull by the horns and try 5d exclusion and live with the risks or open 2s in the first place and live with that risk.

[eagles123]

baffled by suggestion to open it 2S

[mike777]

baffled by suggestion to open it 2S

 

 

 

2s has its risks granted and I can understand pass. For me too weak to open 1s but passing creates its own problems to be able to show this hand if you don't play unlimited splinters by a passed hand. For example I simply cannot hold many of the example hands in the above posts if I pass and I can never hold close to this hand if I splinter.

 

IF I open 2s I may or may not be able to bid hearts later hence the risk.

[cherdano]

I will not write the 2nd time. Read above.

Sorry I had missed the 2nd part of your post.

 

But I just don't agree with the premise. 4♥ is last train, I can't imagine playing it as anything else. Partner will bid on with a maximum splinter, and not bid on with a minimum splinter. I don't want to be in slam opposite a minimum splinter! As a passed hand, I would certainly splinter with ♠AK-5th, a diamond singleton, and a little excuse in a side suit.

How are you going to miss slam with 4♥? You need one keycard and two kings, or two keycard and a king, or extra shape from partner. He won't bid 4♠ as a passed hand with that!

[MrAce]

Sorry I had missed the 2nd part of your post.

 

But I just don't agree with the premise. 4♥ is last train, I can't imagine playing it as anything else. Partner will bid on with a maximum splinter, and not bid on with a minimum splinter. I don't want to be in slam opposite a minimum splinter! As a passed hand, I would certainly splinter with ♠AK-5th, a diamond singleton, and a little excuse in a side suit.

How are you going to miss slam with 4♥? You need one keycard and two kings, or two keycard and a king, or extra shape from partner. He won't bid 4♠ as a passed hand with that!

 

How will you use this in this hand and use it in another hand where you want to bid slam unless your side is giving 2 club tricks and you want to investigate it ? ( I already gave an example in my previous reply) Lets say for the sake of argument that you gave away this ability, or you have your own pet toy to solve it in another way...

 

How does last train help you in this hand ? You say he will bid on with max splinter hand and not with a minimum splinter and made a definition of your own about max splinter hands.

 

 

AKJxx xxx void Qxxxx is that good enough to be a max for a passed hand, 2 keycards + void + 5th trump + extra shape, all you asked for, you wanna be in slam with this, most would open this but i am making a point.Trash out the ♠ J or ♣ Q if u want to. Ironic as it is, you have more chances to make this slam if you avoid a♥ lead http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif And it is not the best way to avoid a lead by using artificial relay bids or cues on that suit at high level, allowing them to double. Or vice versa, maybe pd holds KQxx ♥ and empty clubs and lack of dbl of 4♥ will lead to finding the best lead..http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

KJxx xxxx x KQxx while you don't want to be in slam with this. Only 1 keycard , no void and only 1 king and minimum splinter ( i hope you do not consider 5314 as extra shape and 9 hcp a max splinter, throw out the ♠ J if you want to still better slam than the one above)

 

JTxxx KQxxx void KQx here is 2 kings + extra shape + extra trump + max splinter, he would open with this but i am making a point only.

 

You ain't going nowhere further than i can with this last train. There are basically hands where slam is good and where it is bad. You can learn this by coincidence this hand and fail on another one or vice versa. You are basically working for opponents after 4♦. Sorry but it is how i see it.

[mikeh]

As earlier posts pointed out, before the thread was side-tracked with silly ideas about a weak 2♠ and then a lot of discussion about how to proceed after a splinter, a fit-jump by South has be a better start, and there is no bridge logic, of which I am aware, that suggests any better usage for the call by a passed hand. It can't be a hand trying to play in hearts, since that hand either pre-empts originally, or bids a non-forcing, fit denying 2♥.

 

On this hand, N's diamonds are such that the splinter, which should always be assumed to be a stiff rather than a void, is pretty good, but the weak trumps cause concern since the usual defence to a slam bid after a splinter is a trump lead, and now Axxx opposite x is a potential issue.

 

Keycard won't actually solve the problem, which is no surprise to anyone who understands keycard.

 

Kxxx KQxx x QJxx isn't a good slam. AJxx KQxx x Jxxx is a good slam. Tell me how keycard deals with this. If you say the 2nd hand is an opener, subtract the club J.

 

If we splinter, then N should make a noise if system allows....LTTC 4♥ makes sense and in the context of LTTC, one needn't expect a signoff 99% of the time. That is silly. N's use of LTTC says 'I have interest in slam opposite a useful hand...do you have one?'

 

S has one.

 

Personally, I would love to be able to bid 4N as S here, but am afraid that the keycard madness so prevalent in BBF would have people asking how I could suggest S ask for keycards! It should be impossible for S to ask for keycards.....how the heck can he have a hand that, over LTTC, can place the contract simply by asking for keycards???? In the meantime, consider how useful it would be to have 4N deny a club control while suggesting interest in slam.

 

Back in the mundane world where posters refuse to bid slams without asking for keycards, S can bid 5 diamonds over 4♥.

 

Getting back to fit-jumps, N gets to cue over 3♥, hears 4♦, and basically drives to slam (and I have no argument now with N keycarding, since he has knowledge of at least 9 major suit cards across the table, with all values in the majors.