Bid these hands, please

[EricK]

We got lucky on this hand from last night. We ended up in a poor 6♥ which made on a mis-defence and a lucky layout.

 

How would you have bid them? And after the final pass, how confident would you be that you had explored all the possibilities and ended up in the best place?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq73hkjt962d8c963&n=stha5dakq2caqt752]133|200[/hv]

 

Scoring is IMPs, if that makes a difference.

[Cyberyeti]

Who dealt ?

 

With S as dealer we get to 4♥ trivially, I'm guessing N dealt

 

1♣-1♥

2♦-2♥

3♠-4♥

4♠(KC)-5♣(1)

5♦(Q?)-5♥(no)

[EricK]

Yes, North was dealer.

[mcphee]

I can see the strong hand has some problems depending on the re-bid after his reverse. After a start of 1C 1H, 2D for me a rebid of 2H is a one round force indicating 5 or more H, 2S would be artificial less than 5H and 7 or less hcp, so a direct raise of either minor is 100% GF. I Think most will just repeat H with the intention of raising C later. The opening hand now needs to make a bid other than a simple 3C after 2H to create a GF. I can not splinter in S with just 2 trumps facing what can be a weak hand and 5 trumps. I suppose I am now faced with choice of cheating and repeating D, are bid 2S and set up a force and discover what partner does next which may become confusing, or raise H a level which will still indicate my short S although partner may pass, I think this is the choice I would make at the table. Responder will just bid game.

[chasetb]

1♣-1♥; 2♦-2♥ (5+, less than 8 HCP, NF) ; 3♥ (NF) - 4♥.

 

The key for me is that South has to realize that it's a double fit and that the Q♠ is likely worthless. With North reversing into Diamonds, there are WAY too many misplaced points for any slam to be likely. While North has a really nice hand, I'd be afraid of being tapped in Spades, or trump pulled and then Spades played, and the K♣ being in the wrong hand. Therefore, South takes it slow with 2♥, North only invites with 3♥, and South gladly accepting.

[ahydra]

1C-1H; 2D-4H

 

ahydra

[Fluffy]

1♣-1♥

2♦-2NT slow down

3♦-3♥ reject the slow down

4♥-pass

[mike777]

1c=1h

2d=2h(5+, weakish)

now north can rebid 3 or 4h and you stop in 4.

[mycroft]

hmm.

 

1♣-1♥;

2♦-2♠ ("Leb");

3♣ (can't or won't play 2NT)-3♥;

4♥-p?

 

Maybe it is a problem as xxx QJTxxx x Kxx may do the same; but *should* be happier with "don't want to play NT" and "likes clubs" enough to take a push (of course, I don't want to be in 6♥ with that either. 6♣ though...)

[EricK]

It's fairly easy to get to 4H. But nobody's sequence here really investigates the Club slam. Is it possible to do it all?

[MrAce]

It's fairly easy to get to 4H. But nobody's sequence here really investigates the Club slam. Is it possible to do it all?

 

 

I tried the best i can to come up with some auction to get to 6♣. Even when biased by seeing both hands, i decided no way i can find it with the methods i have in my hand.

 

I had to start

 

1♣---2♦ (2 dia showing a wjs in either major, 2♥ would be mild invitation 6 card hearts)

 

By the time I show my major is hearts it was too high to efficiently show/ask the features of S hand. I would have better space if my hand was mild invitational on another hand where slam would be more likely, because then i would have started 2♥.. Basically the style i play wjs and going thru 2♦ is not the best toy when 2 hands need a lot of bidding to investigate a borderline slam.

[SteveMoe]

The game bidders got it right. The ♣ slam is only 26.5% (Chance of taking 6 tricks in ♣s. The ♥ slam is half that.

Marshall Miles advised bid all slams no worse than a finesse. We need a finesse plus more in ♣.

 

I am surprised no one opened North 2♣ given a 3-loser. I think Edgar K. advocated that approach. I guess we like reversing more...

[chasetb]

I didn't investigate Clubs, because in my example, partner supported the Hearts but DID NOT FORCE TO GAME. If partner's Clubs are so good, (s)he will make a different bid rather than my NF 3♥. While I've never really assigned meanings to any bids other than 3M and 3NT after the first four bids in my auction, I think 2♠ would be artificial and forcing, and then could clarify a 1246 or 1345 with a great Club suit over whatever partner bid.

[the hog]

I can see the strong hand has some problems depending on the re-bid after his reverse. After a start of 1C 1H, 2D for me a rebid of 2H is a one round force indicating 5 or more H, 2S would be artificial less than 5H and 7 or less hcp, so a direct raise of either minor is 100% GF. I Think most will just repeat H with the intention of raising C later. The opening hand now needs to make a bid other than a simple 3C after 2H to create a GF. I can not splinter in S with just 2 trumps facing what can be a weak hand and 5 trumps. I suppose I am now faced with choice of cheating and repeating D, are bid 2S and set up a force and discover what partner does next which may become confusing, or raise H a level which will still indicate my short S although partner may pass, I think this is the choice I would make at the table. Responder will just bid game.

 

I agree with not playing 6 of anything. Neither slam is good.

I disagree with your assertion about opening the hand 2C. I think this is a poor opening on this hand.

2C 2D

3C

Now you are at the 3 level and have still not shown your fine D suit and know nothing about pd's hand. Even if you respond 2H to 2C, you are still at the 3 level without having shown Ds.

[EricK]

Just to clarify, I don't think you should be in the club slam on these hands. But on similar hands 6C will be much better than 6H (and 5C will be at least as good as 4H). It seems a shame never to mention the Club support. But am I asking too much to want to investigate everything and still confidently stop in the right place on these hands?

[MrAce]

Just to clarify, I don't think you should be in the club slam on these hands.

 

Confession : When i saw both hands, for some reason i saw it as we do not have any losers in other suits except than clubs suit and tried to find a reasonable auction to get to club slam, and i could not (LOL) Thinking that system has some flaw when the slam is depending on not losing 2 tricks from AQT7xx vs 9xx with sufficient entries.

[Zelandakh]

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1♦ = (almost) any non-GF

1♠ = art GF

... - 2♠ = max one-suited hand with good hearts

2NT = relay

... - 3♣ = 3 spades

3♦ = relay

... - 3♥ = 3 clubs

3♠ = relay

... - 3NT = 3613

4♣ = relay

... - 4♥ = 1 control

 

Slam is not going to be great even if partner has a perfect hand (♥KQJT9x or ♣Kxx).

[mycroft]

I think my previous statement (that with QJxxxx Kxx in the rounds instead of the hand we have, it's likely that that South hand won't put on the brakes as badly as with the hand in question) is the best hope of finding the club slam. I'm still concerned with the North hand with the "obvious misfit" we have (in my auction), the 5 level will be too high, and even if it's not, 5♣= loses to 4♥=.

[gnasher]

If the South hand is a 1♥ response, this looks normal:

 

1♣-1♥

2♦-2♥

2♠-3♣

3♥-4♥

 

2♥ = F1, 5+ hearts

2♠ = FSF, game-forcing. The North hand is too strong to make a non-forcing bid

3♥ = a doubleton, because North didn't splinter on the previous round

 

However, I'd normally make a weak jump shift on the South hand. After that, the auction ought to be much the same as if South had opened a weak two.

Edited March 12, 2014 by gnasher

[Zelandakh]

3♥ = a doubleton, because North didn't splinter on the previous round

Would you splinter with a singleton ♠A or ♠K here, Andy?

[gnasher]

Would you splinter with a singleton ♠A or ♠K here, Andy?

Probably, yes. The reason for not splintering with a singleton ace or king is that it may be useful opposite some strength in partner's hand. In this sequence slam is likely to depend on the solidity of the heart and club suits, not on how well our spade honours mesh.

 

But even if you wouldn't splinter with that hand-type, it would be very wasteful to reserve the delayed 3♥ bid to show it. If you don't want to splinter, you may be able to bid 2♠ then 3♥ then 4♥.

[Trump Echo]

1♣ - 1♥

3♦ - 3♥

4♣ - 5♣

6♣

 

Responder would see Clubs fit on opener's second bid, but would bid Hearts again anyway since his bid is forcing. Opener would suspect a Hearts fit, but would rebid his Clubs.

[Finch]

1♣ - 2♥ (weak)

2♠ (ask) - 3♦ (singleton)

4♣ - 4♥

pass