Sanity Check

[TylerE]

1♠-(p)-1NT-(2♦)

X?

 

What's X?

[ArtK78]

Being a traditionalist (that means I am as old as dirt) the double would be for penalties.

 

I am sure that there are plenty of players out there who play that all doubles below 2NT are for takeout, so you will get contrary opinions.

[whereagles]

I have meta rules that define it as penalties or take-out. Which do you prefer?

[MrAce]

1♠-(p)-1NT-(2♦)

X?

 

What's X?

 

I play it t/o with 5314

 

With 5413 i would bid 2♥

 

 

[the hog]

The axe

[aguahombre]

Sticking to our refusal to define Doubles as "penalty", "takeout" or by any other name...I would say, "partner is strongly suggesting that the 2D bid was a mistake." Alternately, "Partner agrees that the hand should be played in 2D."

[WGF_Flame]

penalty

[helene_t]

5314 is great when it comes up but it is very specific. I would like to double with 5323 or 5224 and extras, especially if we play weak NT or if we don't open 1NT with five spades routinely. I could bid it with an 18-count and three diamonds as well, en route to 3NT but just checking if partner is able to convert the double. I suppose I could do it with a good 5314 and some quick tricks also. Basically partner will assume I have two diamonds and good defensive values outside of diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

I think it probably matters what 2NT and 3♣ would mean. The simplest is probably to play that double essentially shows a 2♣ rebid and 2NT/3♣ retain their natural meanings. If you are playing Lebensohl here then we have 2NT and 3♣ to cover club hands and a penalty double becomes more attractive.

[mikeh]

There is no 'standard' these days. 40 years ago it would have been penalty.

 

These days I suspect takeout is the more frequent treatment amongst tournament players.

 

At one point, I used a different treatment depending on whether the overcall was higher or lower than the suit I opened.

 

Thus if I opened 1♥ and rho bid 2♠, on frequency grounds it was very rare that I would hold enough spades that I would be doubling for blood, so takeout seemed clear, while if they bid a suit lower than mine, I might well hold a chunky 4 bagger. I used this approach after a non-forcing 1N response to 1m as well.

 

These days, I play takeout in my expert partnerships. But I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

[MrAce]

5314 is great when it comes up but it is very specific. I would like to double with 5323 or 5224 and extras, especially if we play weak NT or if we don't open 1NT with five spades routinely. I could bid it with an 18-count and three diamonds as well, en route to 3NT but just checking if partner is able to convert the double. I suppose I could do it with a good 5314 and some quick tricks also. Basically partner will assume I have two diamonds and good defensive values outside of diamonds.

 

Yes, i actually tried to put the hands you wrote also, but got lazy and just put what a textbook example shape would be for me. My bad.

[SteveMoe]

Following Mel C., Double by opener when partner is limited and can be weak is Take Out. 1M - P - 1N - 2m - X implies 4 in OM. Bidding OM freely shows 5.

[P_Marlowe]

T/O

 

We play all low level X as T/O.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[bluecalm]

T/O is modern expert standard and I think much better treatment. Proceed with caution though as it used to be penalty for many people and you never know what local customs are.

You can have 5323/5224/5314 or even 6322 with a weak suit and/or looking to find hearts. You are in big trouble with those hands (in 15+range) if t/o double is not available. Losing penalty isn't much of a problem, you can always pass and partner will be happy to re-open.

[1eyedjack]

Penalties when playing against bunnies.

T/O (with extras) against good players who know when to overcall under the gun. Can be converted, of course.

What I am not too keen on is a T/O X on pure shape with min. opener in direct seat.