How do you reach the laydown grand?

[32519]

Basic system is 2/1:

[hv=pc=n&s=sa764hadkqj9ckj95&w=sq532hkt742d74c73&n=s8hq8da8632caq864&e=skjt9hj9653dt5ct2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1dp2c(Game%20force)p3c(Club%20fit)p3d(Double%20fit)p4d(6-card%20RKCB)p5c(2%20with%20lower%20queen)p]399|300[/hv]

What now? South has 3 ♠ losers to get rid of. How must the bidding continue now to find the grand? North's bidding has shown 5 clubs and 4 diamonds. That leaves 4-cards in the majors, 2 are taken care of by South's two aces. What about the other two?

[ahydra]

You might fairly safely bet on North not also having a singleton heart, given opps haven't mentioned them.

 

Is there a follow-up you can use to ask for kings/etc? e.g. 5H asks, 5S shows a spade control, then South just bids it.

 

Some people will no doubt suggest cue rather than asking for keycards; they're probably right, as long as they've got good methods to determine there are no keycards missing. (How about: following a sequence of cuebids 5NT shows an even number of keycards?)

 

ahydra

[diana_eva]

I wd have cued 4S over 4D. Don't know how common it is to show a singleton before an Ace, but I usually try to cue the lowest possible first, be it 1st or 2nd round control.

[Antrax]

I wd have cued 4S over 4D.

Presumably that would've shown the wrong number of keycards, as 4♦ was 6 keycard BW.

[SteveMoe]

Try:

1♦-3♠Splinter Raise

4♦Minorwood - 5♣ 2 with

7♦

[diana_eva]

Presumably that would've shown the wrong number of keycards, as 4♦ was 6 keycard BW.

 

Ah, I missed that lol

[Fluffy]

1♦-2♣

4♥-4♠

 

You can bid 4♠ to leave control to partner who can see his diamond holding, our hand is gonna be fully explained once we show 2 keycards and queen of trump. Going straight to 4NT and assumig ♦Q is either in partner's hands of falling is also a good alternative.

[Cyberyeti]

Well 5♥(cue)-5♠(cue)-7m would seem reasonably easy, the only danger is Kxx, x, Axxx, AQxxx but that looks like a 3♥ splinter for many people over 1♦, or if not a 4♥ splinter over 3♣, also opps might well have bid.

 

We'd never bid 2♣ first up, either 3♣(fit, the suit is marginally sub par for us, but with the 5th diamond we'd probably do it anyway) or 2♦ inverted.

 

This would be trivial after the fit bid, as it confirms all the keycards as soon as 3♣ is bid due to the requirements on the suits.

[Lord Molyb]

Isn't south a perfect 2♦ opener with your system? :P

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/64559-introducing-a-new-convention-lee-two-diamonds/

 

1♣ - 2♦

3♦ - 3♠

4♣ - 5♣

5♠ - 6♦

7♦

 

1♣ = Precision

2♦ = Natural, positive

3♦ = Trump-asking bid

3♠ = 5 to one top honor

4♣ = asks

5♣ = AQ or AK of clubs

5♠ = asks

6♦ = 2nd round control of spades

7♦ = Would have to be very unlucky to not have 13 tricks.

[Cyberyeti]

Try:

1♦-3♠Splinter Raise

4♦Minorwood - 5♣ 2 with

7♦

 

Great auction, except:

 

Why is N showing Q♦ when partner presumably could have Kxx(x)

Why is S bidding the grand without further investigation when partner could have Q, KJx, Axxxxx, Axx (he should have 6 to show the Q)

[32519]

Is there a follow-up you can use to ask for kings/etc? e.g. 5H asks, 5S shows a spade control, then South just bids it.

ahydra

South does not know that North is 5/5 in the minors. How does South know if 5♠ shows a singleton or a guarded king? A guarded king still only gets me to 12. I want 13.

 

From South's point of view there are now 12 guaranteed tricks, 9 in the minor suits, the ♠AK (if North is showing a guarded king), and the ♥A. Give me a legitimate auction to bid the grand without blasting.

[32519]

Try:

1♦-3♠Splinter Raise

4♦Minorwood - 5♣ 2 with

7♦

We are playing off Paul Thurston's "The Pocket Guide to 2/1." According to this -

RESPONSES TO A 1♦ OPENING:

3♥/3♠/4♣ = Splinter raises of diamonds with shortness in bid suit, 5+♦ and 12+ HCP.

 

The North hand only has 10 HCP, falling short by 2 HCP for the splinter raise. The other issue here is, by bidding this way a cross-ruff will probably be needed without knowing enough about the North hand. Shorten North's ♣ suit and add them to his ♥ suit, if the opponents lead trumps, they pull two which may prove to be vital to make a grand via a cross-ruff.

[Cyberyeti]

We are playing off Paul Thurston's "The Pocket Guide to 2/1." According to this -

RESPONSES TO A 1♦ OPENING:

3♥/3♠/4♣ = Splinter raises of diamonds with shortness in bid suit, 5+♦ and 12+ HCP.

 

The North hand only has 10 HCP, falling short by 2 HCP for the splinter raise. The other issue here is, by bidding this way a cross-ruff will probably be needed without knowing enough about the North hand. Shorten North's ♣ suit and add them to his ♥ suit, if the opponents lead trumps, they pull two which may prove to be vital to make a grand via a cross-ruff.

 

You may have discounted the Q♥ but it's there and the N hand is a 12 count.

 

Your second point is why the fit jump 3♣ if available is better than the splinter.

[32519]

1♦-2♣

4♥-4♠

 

You can bid 4♠ to leave control to partner who can see his diamond holding, our hand is gonna be fully explained once we show 2 keycards and queen of trump. Going straight to 4NT and assumig ♦Q is either in partner's hands of falling is also a good alternative.

Not sure if this will get me to the grand legitimately?

The Pocket Guide says this about the 2♣ response -

RESPONSES TO A 1♦ OPENING

2♣ = 100% game forcing, 4+♣, 12+ HCP. May have 4-card major if longer ♣.

 

How must South know if 4♠ is a singleton or a 4-card ♠ suit? On the South bidding, the hand can just as well be 4♠/1♥/4♦/4♣? If that is what South actually held, how does South differentiate between a minor suit game/slam in ♣ or a major suit game/slam in ♠?

[32519]

Well:

1. 5♥(cue)-5♠(cue)-7m would seem reasonably easy, the only danger is Kxx, x, Axxx, AQxxx

2. but that looks like a 3♥ splinter for many people over 1♦, or if not a 4♥ splinter over 3♣, also opps might well have bid.

Paraphrasing is mine:

1. This is precisely my dilemma, how to bid the grand legitimately? See the reply to Ahydra. The 5♠ cue gets me to 12 legitimately. I want 13 without blasting. What would 5NT be over 5♠?

2. See the reply to SteveMoe.

 

We'd never bid 2♣ first up, either 3♣(fit, the suit is marginally sub par for us, but with the 5th diamond we'd probably do it anyway) or 2♦ inverted.

This isn't 2/1. The OP says basic system is 2/1.

 

This would be trivial after the fit bid, as it confirms all the keycards as soon as 3♣ is bid due to the requirements on the suits.

This doesn't help. I want to bid the grand legitimately without guessing.

[32519]

1♣ - 2♦

3♦ - 3♠

4♣ - 5♣

5♠ - 6♦

7♦

 

1♣ = Precision

2♦ = Natural, positive

3♦ = Trump-asking bid

3♠ = 5 to one top honor

4♣ = asks

5♣ = AQ or AK of clubs

5♠ = asks

6♦ = 2nd round control of spades

7♦ = Would have to be very unlucky to not have 13 tricks.

This doesn't help. The OP says the basic system is 2/1 (not Precision).

[Cyberyeti]

You seem not only to want people to bid it using 2/1, but the awful version of it you use as exemplified by the other thread you posted, fit jumps and 2/1 are not mutually exclusive.

 

The splinter appears to be EXACTLY as your system card advertised, 2 aces 2 queens = 12 points, so 12+, stiff spade is perfect, but you're not happy with that.

[Zelandakh]

I am surprised this is not a 2♦ opening for you! but perhaps that is with a different partner. A possible auction:-

 

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1♠ = GF with no 4 card major

1NT = relay, usually 18+

... - 2♠ = 5+ clubs, 5+ diamonds

2NT = relay

... - 3♣ = 0-1 spades

3♦ = relay

... - 4♦ = 1255, extras, 4 controls

4♥ = relay

... - 5♣ = controls in both minors but not hearts

5NT = relay

... - 6♦ = ♣Q, no ♦Q

7♣

 

The smallest change within your auction I can see that would lead to the grand is making a 5♠ SSA after 5♣. When North shows a singleton over that the situation is clear. As others have pointed out, other possible solutions also exist where changes are made earlier in the auction.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You had a good tool with the 6Ace RKC... ( 4D! )

 

Delay it 1 round and cuebid prior to it:

3D - 3H

3S - 4D! , etc....

[mcphee]

Why would the opening hand blast key card when it seems best to cue bid H and hope partner is able to cue bid S. When that happens you can use your t6 card key ask and reach it easy, even without 6 card ask you may well bid it.

[32519]

I am surprised this is not a 2♦ opening for you! but perhaps that is with a different partner.

Well 5♥(cue)-5♠(cue)- <snip>

What would 5NT be over 5♠?

My 2♦ opening needs to be adjusted with some of the ideas posted here to reach the grand legitimately. I have now done that as follows –

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa764hadkqj9ckj95&w=sq532hkt742d74c73&n=s8hq8da8632caq864&e=skjt9hj9653dt5ct2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2d(Lee%202D)p2n(%5Bsee%20note%201%5D)p4d(%5Bsee%20note%202%5D)p5c(%5Bsee%20note%203%5D)p5h(%5Bsee%20note%204%5D)p5s(1st%20or%202nd%20round%20control)p5n(%5Bsee%20note%205%5D)p7d(%5Bsee%20note%206%5D)ppp]399|300[/hv]

Notes on the bidding:

1. 2NT by North = 10-13 HCP, suit length and HCP concentrated in the minor suits

2. 4♦ by South = Sets the trump suit, initiating a 6-card RKCB sequence at the same time

3. 5♣ by North = 2-keycards with the lower queen

4. 5♥ by South = We have all the keycards, cue-bid searching for the grand

5. 5NT by South after North's 5♠ = We have 12 top tricks, can you supply 1 more for the grand?

6. 7♦ by North = Yes, I have a ♠ singleton plus an extra ♦. This should be easy!

 

So I borrowed some of the ideas in this thread to get to the grand legitimately.

[gab7nt]

1D 2D 3H(splinter) 4NT...

 

It would surprise me if anyone missed this grand.

[granguru]

What's the problem?

 

1. If 2♣ is GF:

1♦ - 2♣C GF

3♣ - 3♦

4♥ RKCB(6)

....5♦

7♦

 

if you use 4♥ as splinter, then

 

.... 3♦

4NT 5♠

7♦

 

2. If 2♣ is not GF for u, then

 

1♦ 2♦ GF

2N stoppers in both majors cues follow

....3♣

3♥ 3♠

4♣ 4NT

5♣(3) 5♥ Qask

6♣ 7♦

 

or

 

1♦ 2♦

2♥ control

...3♣ control

3♦ 3♠ second round control

4♣ control

... 4NT

5♣(3) 5♥ Q ask

6♣ 7♦

 

3. If you open 2♦ it follows:

2♦ 2N

4♦ 5♣ 2+1Q (as per 5th edition of RKCB, Edwin Kantar, sequence abovementioned is obsolete)

5♥ 5♠

7♦

or 5♠ CAB instead of 5♥

....6♣ (2nd round control)

7♦

[granguru]

1D 2D 3H(splinter) 4NT...

 

It would surprise me if anyone missed this grand.

[granguru]

It is not a good idea to include a stiff A in the splinter bids. It might be good one time, but in the long run it will be misleading. Some experts even treat a stiff K as Kx for this matter.