Would you accept?

[diana_eva]

[hv=pc=n&w=S9532HQJ96DJ6CA76&d=s&v=e&a=PP1DD1S2HP2NP?]133|200[/hv]

 

1) Would you bid 2H? If not, what would you do?

2) Let's say you did bid 2H, now what?

 

IMPs, expert pd and opps.

[kenrexford]

This is a very subtle problem, IMO.

 

The opponents are white on red, with a third seat opening to boot. Call me paranoid, but I fear a high chance of a psychic (or semi-psychic, like bidding a fragment) here. The fact that the psychic, if occurring, is in spades is especially troubling. For instance, if the potential psychic were in hearts (P-P-1♦-X-1♥), I could bid 1♠ and then later bid 2♥ if needed, the order in which I would bid the suits had RHO passed. With a spade psychic, however, I cannot bid 2♥ and then spades because (1) I lose a level and (2) I end up reversing.

 

The easy solution to that problem, should I wish to go there, is to make a penalty double of 1♠ and then bid 2♥ later if necessary.

 

The problem with that approach, however, is that RHO might just have spades like a normal person, and I might get us into the wrong 4-4 major fit if we have both suits.

 

In thinking through this problem for the future, as a passed hand (at least), it might make sense to have Advancer's 2♦ call here show 4-4 in the majors as a hedge against this tactic, and as a descriptive bid for that matter. My shortness in diamonds alone is good evidence of a possible psychic here. But, that is an aside.

 

In practice, would I actually bid 2♥? Yes, unless I smelled a rat, knew the opponents as rats, or was feeling creative that day, in any event of which I would double.

 

If I started with 2♥ and heard 2NT, what now? Partner expects values for a red 2/1 advance, so I would expect him to bid 3NT (or make a cuebid) with the classic 19-20 balanced hand. This call in this sequence is strange. It at first suggests to me that partner has a high-end takeout shape that did not bid 1NT initially because of 4♠/3♥, but why would that stop him from bidding 1NT? Some of this might be knowing partner. Most of my partners, however, would not run from a 1NT overcall with a hand that looks like a 2NT call here. But, if 2NT is just 19-20 and contextually almost forcing, getting out of the way for me to show a fifth heart, then the "mystery" is solved. The world is simple.

 

With that info, though, I would now just about have to reveal the possible psychic and bid 3♠. While this could be misconstrued as a checkback on stoppers or a pattern bid, that would be, IMO, rather silly contextually.

 

 

 

[ArtK78]

1. Yes, I would bid 2♥. Some might bid more, but I would certainly not bid less.

 

2. If you trust your partner, this is a clear acceptance. Partner is showing a hand stronger than a direct 1NT overcall of 1♦. Unless your 1NT overcall has a nonstandard meaning, partner should have a balanced 18-20 count.

 

I understand that you made a free bid of 2♥, and partner has a right to expect some values for your bid. But that doesn't change the meaning of partner's 2NT call. So if you pass 2NT figuring that partner should have bid 3NT with the 18-20 point hand based on your freebid of 2♥, I think you are making a mistake.

 

EDIT: Ken's post appeared while I was typing mine. I don't disagree with anything that he said, but I am not very concerned about missing a 4-4 spade fit. First of all, my spades are not anything special. And second of all, the only time it is right to play this hand in spades is if RHO is psyching (and even then it might be right to play the hand in NT). So I am still just going to raise my partner's 2NT bid to 3NT.

 

Apparently partner does not have 4 hearts. Partner may or may not have 4 spades. But partner should have 18-20 HCP for his bid. And, given that, it is certainly not necessary that partner have 4 of either major for his bidding. So everything points to 3NT being the right spot even if the 1♠ bid was a psyche.

[gszes]

Your 2h bid could easily have been an ace weaker but with extra

heart length and/or distribution like xxxx QJTxxx x xx a very

reasonable 2h bid after p makes a tox. P 2n is most likely

between 18-19 since they surely would have bid 3n after your

2h bid if they had 20 or maybe even a good 19.

 

You have a reasonable 8 count with everything working so this

should be an easy acceptance.

[diana_eva]

...

I understand that you made a free bid of 2♥, and partner has a right to expect some values for your bid. But that doesn't change the meaning of partner's 2NT call. So if you pass 2NT figuring that partner should have bid 3NT with the 18-20 point hand based on your freebid of 2♥, I think you are making a mistake.

...

 

Thanks, that's exactly what got me confused. I thought he would have bid 3nt with the 18-20 after my voluntary 2H, so I passed. That was not good :)

 

PS: opps really had spades, so no psyche, although I thought at the time they might be just fooling around at fav vul.

[mike777]

I think all the posts raise good points but basically yes raise to game if for no other reason we are vul, and stopping on a dime with 2nt being correct is very often not best. These deals are so often making one or three. So bid game with confidence and they may not double.

[Endymion77]

2♥ is clear. The 2NT bid in this sequence is interesting, and most experienced pairs need to discuss this. You surely will accept, but something doesn't add up and at MPs you have to at least consider a spade game vs a NT game. However, you're a Q short of a 3♦ bid here so I guess you have to bury a possible spade fit and just bid 3NT following Hamman's rule.

[the hog]

I will certainly accept. I trust my partner and not the opposition.

[the hog]

Thanks, that's exactly what got me confused. I thought he would have bid 3nt with the 18-20 after my voluntary 2H, so I passed. That was not good :)

 

PS: opps really had spades, so no psyche, although I thought at the time they might be just fooling around at fav vul.

 

Would you not bid 2H on Qxxxxx and out? I certainly would.

[diana_eva]

Would you not bid 2H on Qxxxxx and out? I certainly would.

 

No I wouldn't.

[lycier]

First double,then rebid 2nt showed 18-19hcp with balance,so it is a reasonable to bid into 3nt.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 2H is clear cut

#2 Contrary to some comments, I dont believe in partner showing 18-20 bal.

I showed some live, he tries for game, i.e. I put him in the 15-17 range,

depends a little bit on the lower end of your 2H bid.

If you assume, that 2NT is 18-20, 2NT would be forcing opposite a free bid,

and I dont think 2NT is forcing.

 

I still would bid 3NT, because I could have a lot less for my 2H bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

No I wouldn't.

 

Interesting! I suspect 90% of the better posters here would think this was automatic.

[the hog]

#1 2H is clear cut

#2 Contrary to some comments, I dont believe in partner showing 18-20 bal.

I showed some live, he tries for game, i.e. I put him in the 15-17 range,

depends a little bit on the lower end of your 2H bid.

If you assume, that 2NT is 18-20, 2NT would be forcing opposite a free bid,

and I dont think 2NT is forcing.

 

I still would bid 3NT, because I could have a lot less for my 2H bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

With 15-17 he would have overcalled 1NT. 2NT here certainly shows 18-19.

[diana_eva]

Interesting! I suspect 90% of the better posters here would think this was automatic.

 

I was trying to reply not to upvote this lol. Anyway, I am trying to understand whether 2NT here shows the same 18-19 keeping the auction open, or it can be something else, like a non forcing invite after a positive response from me. If indeed the better posters would reply on a 2-3 count then it makes sense. However I wouldn't, since nobody forces me to bid and partner can still make a second bid with a really good hand.

[the hog]

I was trying to reply not to upvote this lol. Anyway, I am trying to understand whether 2NT here shows the same 18-19 keeping the auction open, or it can be something else, like a non forcing invite after a positive response from me. If indeed the better posters would reply on a 2-3 count then it makes sense. However I wouldn't, since nobody forces me to bid and partner can still make a second bid with a really good hand.

 

I agree that no one forces you to bid, but look at your shape. Get that suit into play!

[diana_eva]

I agree that no one forces you to bid, but look at your shape. Get that suit into play!

 

The fact that I misbid does not change the meaning of my partner's bid.

 

At the table I thought 2NT cannot be 18-20, so it has to be a good 14-bad 15 he didn't feel like overcalling 1NT with. Or, maybe he had natural spades, opps were psyching, and he was trying to expose it.

 

You win the postmortem though, because in reality he had an excellent 19, so he probably did think i wd bid on Qxxxxx

 

Edit: Sry he had 18 not 19. But still a v good hand:

[hv=pc=n&e=saqjh83dkq9ckqj93]133|100[/hv]

Edited March 7, 2014 by diana_eva

[helene_t]

You win the postmortem though, because in reality he had an excellent 19, so he probably did think i wd bid on Qxxxxx

I don't think so. I think he wanted to offer you a choice of game. You might a 5-3 fit in hearts.

[the hog]

The fact that I misbid does not change the meaning of my partner's bid.

 

At the table I thought 2NT cannot be 18-20, so it has to be a good 14-bad 15 he didn't feel like overcalling 1NT with. Or, maybe he had natural spades, opps were psyching, and he was trying to expose it.

 

You win the postmortem though, because in reality he had an excellent 19, so he probably did think i wd bid on Qxxxxx

 

" opps were psyching, and he was trying to expose it."

Why do so many posters believe the opps rather than their pd? You must play with some awful partners. Why bother?

CY also has a valid point. What about a 5-3 H fit?

[diana_eva]

I don't think so. I think he wanted to offer you a choice of game. You might a 5-3 fit in hearts.

 

 

Yes that would make sense. I didn't think of that then. Still, IRL he had xx in hearts :) Only hog's theory holds given the real deal lol

 

So we both misbid. I should have accepted, he shd have just bid 3NT.

 

I don't play with awful partners, but we had not discussed how to handle psychs, and since I didn't start with a double of 1S he could really have spades and opps to be fooling around. I think it's quite common at that vul, and has nothing to do with trusting partner or opps.

[the hog]

Yes that would make sense. I didn't think of that then. Still, IRL he had xx in hearts :) Only hog's theory holds given the real deal lol

 

So we both misbid. I should have accepted, he shd have just bid 3NT.

 

I don't play with awful partners, but we had not discussed how to handle psychs, and since I didn't start with a double of 1S he could really have spades and opps to be fooling around. I think it's quite common at that vul, and has nothing to do with trusting partner or opps.

 

" Only hog's theory holds given the real deal lol"

Not a theory. It is what my partner would have and what I would have if the bidding proceeded in that way. The hand you posted is consistent with the bidding.