Question to Relayers

[Gerben47]

Hi,

 

I have a question to those playing a relay system. Suppose you know one hand has 16+ and the other has 8+ (positive response), or as in my case, 8 - 15 HCP.

 

My question: In what way would you want to know the strength of the responding hand?

 

Possibility 1: Relay out the shape then ask for controls or strength

Possibility 2: Give up one step in your relay to distinguish between a minimum positive response and a good positive response

Possibility 3: In case of signoff responder may break the signoff with a good hand.

 

Any thoughts?

[hrothgar]

Interesting question...

 

From my perspective, I actually think that the dimension that you call shape is a subset of what I'll call "Symmetry". Symmetric is an adjective that means, “having similarity in size, shape, and relative position of corresponding parts”. Within the context of relay bidding, symmetric relay refers to a relay structure designed such that specific hand shapes are typically resolved with the same bid. For example, any 5431 shape is always resolved with a 3♦ bid. Regardless of whether you open with a strong club or a limited opening bid, regardless whether you open 1♦ or 1♠, if you have a 5431 shape, you will always resolve shape with a 3♦ bid. In a similar fashion, any 7330 shape is always resolved with a 3♠ bid. In those cases where a hand shape cannot always be resolved with the same bid, the shapes are resolved using a standard “approach sequence”.

 

Symmetry is important for two reasons:

 

1. Symmetric relay structures are much easier to remember

2. Symmetric relay structures are very efficient since the level of resolution is tied to the frequency of the structure

 

With this said and done, if I can squeeze in a free range designator I will

[luke warm]

i've only played a relay structure over a limited bid, like 1nt... the one i use is relatively old, created by truscott (i think)... it finds the shape (usually within the next 2 rebids by opener, but often with his first rebid, and always below 3nt), then the number of controls, then specific controls... so this one falls within your #1

 

i like it, it can keep you out of a bad 3nt and often finds low pointage minor suit slams

[the hog]

Agree with Richard - surprise! Possibilities 1 and 3 are real. The other thisng relayer can do is to reverse the relay with a limited hand eg

 

1C 1N

2C asks

2D shows a flat hand response and limits opener to 16-18

[mr1303]

What I do in my symmetric relay system is the following:

 

After the shape has been resolved, the next step asks for slam points (A = 3, K = 2, Q = 1). Alternatively, if opener is minimum, he can bid 3NT, or 4D, which is a puppet to 4H to sign off in a suit. With greater than 8 slam points, responder can ignore the sign off, and bids the number of slam points he has on a step-wise scale.

[the hog]

Used to play slam points and now agree with Klinger and Neil that this is not the best way to go. Slam points don't tell you enough; better is step 1 after shape = slab. rkcb with step 1 = min. Min/better than min entails looking at your hand - fitting honours, honours in long suits etc. R. responder can of course flow on after the 4D end signal or a 3NT sign off.

[Free]

I like to let both players unlimited until the distribution of 1 hand is completely known (unless it's possible to reverse relays). Games are way more frequent than slams, so first try to find the best game, only when you've found the right suit (or NT) you can continue to explore for slam if you want to.

 

After shape, you can ask for strength (or Aces/keycards if that's more interesting for you). I like SP ask (which I play), but control ask is also quite fine to know if you can have slam or not.

 

However, opener doesn't always have to ask for SP/Aces/keycards, you also need endsignals (which sometimes will get your actual slam bidding on a lower level than if you'd just asked!). I play 3NT 'always' to play, 4♦ is terminator. Now when responder has sufficient extra strength (3 or more extra SP above the minimum base-level) then he should 'zoom' and ignore the standard procedure of the end signals.

 

I've noticed this works very well :(

[luke warm]

yes, i do that also (sorta) but usually when there's room for a min/max ask

[mgoetze]

Our system is still in development, but we actually ask for controls before responder's distribution is completely known, because if we are not headed towards slam there is often no need to to relay out the entire distribution. Example:

 

1♣ (16+) - 1♠ (9+, no singleton/void)

1NT (relay) - 2♦ (3 controls)

2♥ (relay) - 2NT (4+ spades, 2/3 hearts)

4♦ (terminator) - 4♥ (forced)

4♠ (signoff)

 

Having found a 4-4+ spade fit, opener has no interest in asking for a 5-card minor, etc., because he already knows slam is not possible. OTOH:

 

1♣ (16+) - 1♠ (9+, no singleton/void)

1NT (relay) - 2♥ (4 controls)

2♠ (relay) - 3♣ (4+ spades, 2/3 hearts)

3♦ (relay) - 3♥ (4+ clubs)

3♠ (relay) - 4♦ (4=2=2=5)

7♣ (signoff)

 

Opener knew right away only the King of Diamonds was missing, so he relayed out the whole distribution. Finding out that responder can discard a diamond on his Queen of Hearts, he bids the Grand, blahblahblah...

 

I think most of the time if you're only bidding a game you don't need the entire distribution... and if you accidentally wrong-sided the contract along the way it might cost you. So better to find out soon how far you want to go.

[DelfinoD]

Possibility 1: Relay out the shape then ask for controls or strength

Possibility 2: Give up one step in your relay to distinguish between a minimum positive response and a good positive response

Possibility 3: In case of signoff responder may break the signoff with a good hand.

(sorry for my english)

In most relay systems I know it usually looks like this:

 

after first relay:

-low responces to don't tell anything about strength

-high reposnces always show maximum strength

Now after low responce if asking hand is weak it doesn't bid another relay (which is GF) but anything else, which is natural and invitational.

after second relay asking hand usually again has a choice to bid another relay or anything else, which is forcing and starts natural bidding.

 

In relay bidding, up to 3NT or 4C asking hand should know exact shape and strength of partner's hand. Now 3NT is sign-off and 4D is terminator, which asks partner to bid 4H and pass out our responce. Other bids start slam bidding by chosing trump suit depending on it's length in responder hand:

I - longest

II - second

III - third

IV - shortest

If two suits are same length - longer is the lower (or higher if you wish) one.

 

Now responcer shows key cards this way:

I = 1

II = 1+Q

III = 0 or 3

IV = 2

V = 2+Q

If he's stronger than about 12PC the responces could be different:

I = 2

II = 1

III = 0 or 3

IV = 2+Q

V = 3+Q

but they doesn't have to

 

Next step - any bid other than trump (which is sign-off) are slam suit asking bids:

I - asks for the longest suit which is not trump

II - asks for the second longest suit which is not trump

III - asks for the trump suit (if you have doubts about the key cards and Q)

IV - asks for the shortest suit

and the responces are:

I = nothing

II = Q or AK

III = K or AQ

IV = A or KQ

V = AKQ

You can continue the questions up to 5NT, all higher bids are always sing-offs. If you omit a suit it vanishes from next questions list eg. if the succesion was like this:

I - spades

II - hearts

III - diamonds

IV - clubs

and you asked about hearts, the succesion for the next question would be:

I - diamonds

II - clubs

 

The conclusion is: If asking hand is not balanced and it doesn't have at least one hight honour in every suit it shouldn't use relay bidding, it should rather try to bid it naturally. That's why system should allow to bid both ways.

 

This method is called "Wywolanie Koncowe" and it was designed in Poland about 30 years ago by the authors of Weak Opening Systems (so called Strong Pass).

 

I personally think that strength and shape of the hand are the moste important infomations in first stage, when you're not sure wether to try for the slam or just play a game. Slam questions should start high enough, when you're sure that you want to try to go for the slam.

[luis]

Hi Gerben very nice questions

 

There're several approaches.

 

I used method 2 and method 3 but recently I've decided that both methods had some drawbacks specially when the auction becomes competitive.

So now I like to limit the strenght of the hand as early as possible.

Over our strong club for example I'm using 1d as either 0-7 or 12 making all the other bids 8-11. This better adjusts for the frequency of the HCPs that responder will have and makes a better use of the bidding space available. The duality in 1d is always easily solved even in competitive auctions.