Bidding Cold Slams

[broze]

Some good and creative attempts. Though I think the 1♦ openers are being rather disingenuous. I thought this was quite a tough one - easy to see why 2NT openers and rebids are called slam-killers. Stay tuned for part two.

 

All that is clear to me is that the South hand is worth a lot more than its 22HCP. KnR values it at 24.6! I think Helene's auction is the most likely natural one, though as she says it's easy to be biased seeing all 26 cards.

 

Question: After 2♣-2♦-2NT-5NT, what is 6♦? Is it offering an alternative small slam or inviting grand with a 5 card suit? If the latter it seems pretty perfect.

[Zelandakh]

For a natural auction, the obvious way forward to me is not to punt 5NT but rather to use Baron. That finds the diamond fit comfortably, albeit without enough space for any science: ... - 2NT - 4♠ (Baron); 5♦ (max+4♦s) - 5♠; 6♦ (5♦s). After this 6♥ should be a grand try (since Responder already denied 4 hearts) but that is the extent of the options beyond just guessing 6 or 7.

 

I already hinted at an alternative/gadget for a Puppet start, although this does not really help very much: ... - 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥ = slam interest with exactly 4 clubs. Opener would continue 4♠ showing diamonds but now a natural 5NT just brings us back to the blasting route. There is a subtle difference here though in that we could differentiate between the 2 different hand types broze mentions by using 6♦ for one (cos) and 6♠ for the other (invite). Similarly with 3 card club support for 6♣/6♥.

 

Still no real science but at least there is a little scope for finer tuning here and on other hands either of these routes would have a significant advantage over the direct 5NT.

[aguahombre]

 

All that is clear to me is that the South hand is worth a lot more than its 22HCP. KnR values it at 24.6! I think Helene's auction is the most likely natural one, though as she says it's easy to be biased seeing all 26 cards.

Yeh, my mental KNR based on gut feeling evaluated South above the 22-24, but having seen the companion hand, it could have been gut resulting. I wouldn't have chosen 2C and then 3NT at the table, but it is certainly closer than it is to opening 1D.

[MinorKid]

2♣ 2N* Positive (No 5 carder, For a minor, Bid Tempo to 5 of a Minor)

3♦ 3♠ (4 Spades A+ or KQ+)

3N 4♦ (3+♦ cue-request. Since it is below 5♦ it is showing extra values)

4♥* 4N. (RKCB (D))

5♣ (0/3) 5♥ (?Q All KC Present)

5♠* (♦Q+♠K) 6♣* (else?)

7♦ (♣K + ♥K) 7NT

 

On the POV of South He can count on 4s+2h+5d+2c tricks for a total of 13. If he has not the ♠J he may stop at 6NT or 7♦.

 

Like "Trump Echo" have said, the trick is to show super positive opposite a strong 2-club opening, in which my 4♦ to 3NT did it.

[whereagles]

Whereagles/Cyber: Have you guys published your Forcing Diamond system?

 

I designed a strong diamond system, yes. Wanna a copy?

[granguru]

if std SAYC used:

 

2♣ 2NT(8+, positive)

3♦ 4♦ (RKCB(♦)- 4 level minor suit agreement

4♥ 4♠ (asks ♦Q+Ks)

5N* 6♣ *♦Q, all Ks - CAB in ♣

6♥**7♦/NT **3rd round control

 

after 4♠, asking it could also go:

5♣ (Ks, ♦Q ask) 5♦

5♥ (♥K) 5♠

5NT (♠K) 6♣ (CAB in ♣)

6♥ (3rd round) 7NT

 

after 2♦ relay:

2♣ 2♦ (relay)

3♦ 3♠ (suit)

3N 4♣ (suit)

4♦ 4N (RKCB,♦ agreed)

5♣ 5♦ (♦Q&Ks?)

5♥ 5♠ (more Ks?)

5N 6♣ (more Ks?)

6♥ 7NT yes, all

 

Instead of 5♥, opener can bid 6NT=♦Q, all kings. Then responder can easily bid 7NT.

[MinorKid]

3NT looks like it might take up a lot of bidding room after a 2♣ opening. How do you continue if opener has an unbalanced hand playable in two strains?

 

Therefore one may have to figure out a way to show super positive hands on the 2nd round. (E.g. simple raise is strong positive and game raise is minimum positive.)

[MinorKid]

Some good and creative attempts. Though I think the 1♦ openers are being rather disingenuous. I thought this was quite a tough one - easy to see why 2NT openers and rebids are called slam-killers. Stay tuned for part two.

 

All that is clear to me is that the South hand is worth a lot more than its 22HCP. KnR values it at 24.6! I think Helene's auction is the most likely natural one, though as she says it's easy to be biased seeing all 26 cards.

 

Question: After 2♣-2♦-2NT-5NT, what is 6♦? Is it offering an alternative small slam or inviting grand with a 5 card suit? If the latter it seems pretty perfect.

 

IMO 5NT is forcing to at least 6NT. (Grand Slam Invitation.) 6♦ is inviting a grand based on fitting of the diamond suit (Else bid 6NT). However it is based on only a good 4-card suit as 4-4 fits can often produce an extra trick. This is especially so when 2NT rebid after 2♣ had denied good 5 carder.

[MrAce]

I would not be able to reach grand on this hand.

[Zelandakh]

if std SAYC used:

2♣ 2NT(8+, positive)

3♦ 4♦ (RKCB(♦)- 4 level minor suit agreement

How long has this been part of SAYC?

 

 

after 2♦ relay:

2♣ 2♦ (relay)

3♦ 3♠ (suit)

3N 4♣ (suit)

4♦ 4N (RKCB,♦ agreed)

What would Responder have bid here without any sort of fit?

[HighLow21]

I can see going 7♦ directly over 5nt. Partner is clearly showing a monster with no fears about the diamond suit. 7 should be on a finesse or squeeze at the absolute worst and might be laydown.

 

6♦ is good for the frail-hearted.

 

I would only bid 7 myself if I were playing in a tournament with very strong opposition. I might 6NT actually, in a matchpoint tourney with moderate competition.

[aguahombre]

Therefore one may have to figure out a way to show super positive hands on the 2nd round. (E.g. simple raise is strong positive and game raise is minimum positive.)

Responder holding a super positive hand should still stay out of the way of a 2C opening bidder's plan until that hand has been limited. If Opener rebids 2N, Responder is in charge.. the only one of the two hands which is unlimited.

 

If opener rebids 3 of a suit (She should not do so with the given hand), she has a plan where she is taking over and asking the questions. Answer them. If Opener has asked everything she wants to ask and subsides, Responder might continue on from there.

 

Sometimes trusting the 2C opener to know what she is doing, and staying out of her way until she finishes doing it can be fun/profitable; OR:

 

2C-2D (just a waiting noise, staying out of the way)

3S-? (3S set trump and wants me to start cueing cheapest bullet or NT with a King, after which she will making asking bids.)

 

X AXXXX AXX AXXXX was my holding. I could let her torture the two of us for a few more rounds, but her sequence would not start this way without ten tricks in her hand. Thus, 7NT was automatic. AKQJTXXX XX V KQX was a bit less than a sure ten tricks, but enough for the claim at trick one.

[MinorKid]

Responder holding a super positive hand should still stay out of the way of a 2C opening bidder's plan until that hand has been limited. If Opener rebids 2N, Responder is in charge.. the only one of the two hands which is unlimited.

 

If opener rebids 3 of a suit (She should not do so with the given hand), she has a plan where she is taking over and asking the questions. Answer them. If Opener has asked everything she wants to ask and subsides, Responder might continue on from there.

 

Sometimes trusting the 2C opener to know what she is doing, and staying out of her way until she finishes doing it can be fun/profitable; OR:

 

2C-2D (just a waiting noise, staying out of the way)

3S-? (3S set trump and wants me to start cueing cheapest bullet or NT with a King, after which she will making asking bids.)

 

X AXXXX AXX AXXXX was my holding. I could let her torture the two of us for a few more rounds, but her sequence would not start this way without ten tricks in her hand. Thus, 7NT was automatic. AKQJTXXX XX V KQX was a bit less than a sure ten tricks, but enough for the claim at trick one.

 

 

I agree... When one has a better quailty of a suit he must be the boss.

[Cyberyeti]

Responder holding a super positive hand should still stay out of the way of a 2C opening bidder's plan until that hand has been limited. If Opener rebids 2N, Responder is in charge.. the only one of the two hands which is unlimited.

 

If opener rebids 3 of a suit (She should not do so with the given hand), she has a plan where she is taking over and asking the questions. Answer them. If Opener has asked everything she wants to ask and subsides, Responder might continue on from there.

 

Sometimes trusting the 2C opener to know what she is doing, and staying out of her way until she finishes doing it can be fun/profitable; OR:

 

2C-2D (just a waiting noise, staying out of the way)

3S-? (3S set trump and wants me to start cueing cheapest bullet or NT with a King, after which she will making asking bids.)

 

X AXXXX AXX AXXXX was my holding. I could let her torture the two of us for a few more rounds, but her sequence would not start this way without ten tricks in her hand. Thus, 7NT was automatic. AKQJTXXX XX V KQX was a bit less than a sure ten tricks, but enough for the claim at trick one.

 

In some way I agree with this, another example is the best hand I've ever held when partner opened 2♣, x, A, AKxxx, Axxxxx, our auction was 2♣-3♣(we play an old fashioned 2♦ neg, and don't require a better suit for this)-4♠-7N, partner's hand was 8 solid, KQ10x, x, void, the only thing missing was the spade lead to force you to discard the A♥ to make it.

[MinorKid]

2♣ 2N

3♦ 3♠

3N 4♦

 

now what?

 

4N. 5♥~

7♦

 

the worst 12HCP count needs only a fitness for the thirteenth trick.

[MinorKid]

2♣ 2N* Positive (No 5 carder, For a minor, Bid Tempo to 5 of a Minor)

3♦ 3♠ (4 Spades A+ or KQ+)

3N 4♦ (3+♦ cue-request. Since it is below 5♦ it is showing extra values)

4♥* 4N. (RKCB (D))

5♣ (0/3) 5♥ (?Q All KC Present)

5♠* (♦Q+♠K) 6♣* (else?)

7♦ (♣K + ♥K) 7NT

 

On the POV of South He can count on 4s+2h+5d+2c tricks for a total of 13. If he has not the ♠J he may stop at 6NT or 7♦.

 

Like "Trump Echo" have said, the trick is to show super positive opposite a strong 2-club opening, in which my 4♦ to 3NT did it.

 

Is 3N putting an end to opener's description?

[Zelandakh]

Is 3N putting an end to opener's description?

Am slightly confused - are you criticising your own auction?

[MinorKid]

Am slightly confused - are you criticising your own auction?

 

Yes somewhat just asking for opinions. If this is the case this is a sufficient reason for responder to take charge of the auction.

[Lovera]

I suggest : S 2♣ - N 4 NT (quantitative=11/12 points, balanced hand). Let's note that S has an half balanced hand (5-4-2-2) for a(probable) diamond bidding and jump to 6 ♦ invite to 7 (also for 6 NT). About points : N must have almost an Ace (with 11 p.), then ..

[benlessard]

[hv=d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1cp1dp2dp2sp2np3cp3hp3sp3np4cp4dp]133|100[/hv]

 

1D is H or pts (gf bal or 6-8 inv)

 

2D is almost GF (22-23 pts)

2S is GF (often gf bal or with 4H)

2NT is 22-23 bal

3C is romex stayman

3H is exactly 4H may have 4S

3S is 4S (denies 4H)

3NT denies 4S

4C show bal GF with 4S+4C without 4H

 

here its undiscussed but since responder cannot have 4D I would take 4D as showing 5.

 

Our rule is bid that can be natural are natural others are rkc responses agreeing fit (except the NT bids)

 

so after 4D, 5C would show 2 no Q (and a 4234 by inference)

6C (extras for 7D) ---7D yes.

 

IRL ill probably be in 6D however.

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=skthak73dakq75ck4&n=saqj2ht9dj84ca653]133|200[/hv]

 

EDIT: Sorry, South was dealer.

 

 

we have 13 top tricks yet I find it difficult to bid 7nt. difficult

 

Posters bidding if I find silly if laughable.

 

 

this is silly but//

 

2c=2d

2nt=5nt(grand try?)

 

may I bid only 6nt yet still win the match?

[Lovera]

we have 13 top tricks yet I find it difficult to bid 7nt. difficult

 

Posters bidding if I find silly if laughable.

 

 

this is silly but//

 

2c=2d

2nt=5nt(grand try?)

 

may I bid only 6nt yet still win the match?

I don't understand your fear : you such as must not bid 7 (in this case probably your have right) but (jumping) 6NT and partner close to 7 with 2 Ace but also ' cause in spade N have 3 honors and then the suit is ok (S has almost K) Points are sufficent for 7NT also counting from N opposite 2♣ opening bid.(Lovera)

[MinorKid]

Opener : 22HCP + 1DP Good control factor

Responder: 12HCP + 0DP Fair Control factor

Suit Fit : +3 for Eight Card Fit

 

Total : 38 points