Incomprehensible sport

[gwnn]

To me, it's an open question why boxing and figure skating are among the most controversial sports when it comes to corrupt judges. I've never heard of ski jumping judges being accused of being bought, nor in gymnastics. For boxing, I can see how there's a lot of money at stake (so it makes sense to try to bribe the judges) and it's a very popular sport amidst less sophisticated people (so the explanation of corruption makes more sense to fans), but I'm not sure any of this applies to figure skating. I haven't seen the women's final this year but more than 2 million people (!) seem to think Kim Yuna was robbed: http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/international-skating-union-isu-open-transparent-scores-and-remove-anonymity-from-the-judging-decisions-of-women-s-figure-skating-at-the-sochi-olympics

[Bbradley62]

... I'm not sure any of this applies to figure skating...

It's not like we haven't seen this before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal

 

However, it does appear to me that the vast majority of those who are objecting to the recent results are primarily objecting to the current scoring system, which favors jumps over "artistry".

[Vampyr]

I haven't seen the women's final this year but more than 2 million people (!) seem to think Kim Yuna was robbed

 

I saw it, and as much as I wanted Kim Yuna to win, I could not deny that the Russian's routine was flawless.

[Cthulhu D]

Isn't curling just lawn bowls for people who don't have the sense to move somewhere warm?

[Bbradley62]

So what would you call them? While you may not like the way that winners are determined, can you honestly say that they require less expertise and athletic ability than games with mostly objective scoring criteria?

Many activities, including ballroom dancing, ballet, etc. require expertise and athletic ability, but I wouldn't want to see them in the Olympics either.

 

According to Webster's New World Dictionary (1982 edition, so not really new any more), the first definition of "sport" is: "any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation". All sorts of stuff that doesn't belong in the Olympics fits that definition.

[sailoranch]

To me, it's an open question why boxing and figure skating are among the most controversial sports when it comes to corrupt judges. I've never heard of ski jumping judges being accused of being bought, nor in gymnastics. For boxing, I can see how there's a lot of money at stake (so it makes sense to try to bribe the judges) and it's a very popular sport amidst less sophisticated people (so the explanation of corruption makes more sense to fans), but I'm not sure any of this applies to figure skating. I haven't seen the women's final this year but more than 2 million people (!) seem to think Kim Yuna was robbed: http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/international-skating-union-isu-open-transparent-scores-and-remove-anonymity-from-the-judging-decisions-of-women-s-figure-skating-at-the-sochi-olympics

 

Boxing is easy. There's a lot of money at stake, the oversight is extremely lax (and splintered), and the shadiness doesn't seem to drive away spectators.

 

In figure skating, a lot has to do with the old scoring system, which was preferential (read: matchpoints). So a judge could easily manipulate the standings without giving ridiculous scores. In the case of the 2002 pairs event, the balance of the nationalities of the judges created a situation where a single judge could expect to be a swing vote, and thus easily bought (in this case, by organized crime figures).

 

This was relatively recent and it was the Olympics, so figure skating hasn't managed to shed the stink. They changed the system so that the judges have to grade several different elements, so the scoring is a bit more predictable and scores that are out of line with the other judges will get trimmed. On the other hand, they made the judging anonymous in order to protect the judges from pressure from their own countries' federations (or mob bosses), but the lack of transparency doesn't help their case with the general public.

[Cyberyeti]

Boxing is easy. There's a lot of money at stake, the oversight is extremely lax (and splintered), and the shadiness doesn't seem to drive away spectators.

 

 

Actually a lot of the worst decisions are in amateur boxing. There was a scandal where 3 of the 5 (I think it was 3 of 5, but something like that) judges had to register a tap for a punch to score, and judges from the former Soviet union of which there were many, were refusing to score punches for other non former Soviet countries' fighters opponents and scoring some phantom punches in their favour.

[sailoranch]

Actually a lot of the worst decisions are in amateur boxing. There was a scandal where 3 of the 5 (I think it was 3 of 5, but something like that) judges had to register a tap for a punch to score, and judges from the former Soviet union of which there were many, were refusing to score punches for other non former Soviet countries' fighters opponents and scoring some phantom punches in their favour.

 

Certainly true, but I think it's somewhat of a knock-on effect that's developed alongside the professional ranks. Promoters try to whip up the best amateur talent, and Olympic/amateur success helps to sell fighters early in their professional careers. Also, judges often judge both amateur and pro (or have judged the other in the past).

[sailoranch]

As an aside, AIBA is using its status as gatekeeper of Olympic eligibility to expand into professional boxing. They are reverting to the ten-point-must system and dropping headgear for the top amateur men.

[32519]

To you, I, and the man on the Clapham Omnibus, the common feature which we regard as defining sport is the competitive element. But HMRC have always drawn the line that it requires some physical effort. Thus, projecting a dart from an oche with sufficient force that it should arrive at a dartboard counts as "physical". Presumably, when flying a model aeroplane, you have to take some effort to move that joystick with your thumbs, although personally I think that it is stretching a point. Maybe it is the fresh air that tips it.

Bridge also has "some physical effort." Every time I sit East/West in a Mitchell movement, it takes "some physical effort" to get to the next table.

[gwnn]

It's not like we haven't seen this before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal

 

However, it does appear to me that the vast majority of those who are objecting to the recent results are primarily objecting to the current scoring system, which favors jumps over "artistry".

My point was exactly that it is very common in figure skating and not to my knowledge in gymnastics or ski jumping, even though at least gymnastics are similarly popular (well, I come from Romania so maybe I'm wrong about that).

[billw55]

I think the problem is a shortcoming of the English language. We don't have separate, single words for "measured sport" and "judged sport". We might even need a third for "some of both".

 

Sure, Curling looks strange to people who are rarely exposed to it. But honestly, I don't think it is inherently any stranger than plenty of other well known and acknowledged sports. Using 14 different weird-shaped sticks to whack a little ball hundreds of yards, then chase it and do it again, 18 times over? WTF? :P

[gwnn]

I think the problem is a shortcoming of the English language. We don't have separate, single words for "measured sport" and "judged sport". We might even need a third for "some of both".

 

Sure, Curling looks strange to people who are rarely exposed to it. But honestly, I don't think it is inherently any stranger than plenty of other well known and acknowledged sports. Using 14 different weird-shaped sticks to whack a little ball hundreds of yards, then chase it and do it again, 18 times over? WTF? :P

Actually, I've watched and enjoyed several curling matches but I've never been tempted to watch televised golf except as a means to fall asleep.

[Cyberyeti]

Actually, I've watched and enjoyed several curling matches but I've never been tempted to watch televised golf except as a means to fall asleep.

 

Funnily enough, I watched some of the most exciting golf I've ever seen last night.

[barmar]

Bridge also has "some physical effort." Every time I sit East/West in a Mitchell movement, it takes "some physical effort" to get to the next table.

"physical effort" seems like much too low a bar. I used the phrase "athletic ability" -- getting up and down from chairs 12 times in 3 hours is hardly athletic.

 

Also, if you have trouble getting to the next table, you can request a N/S. And if you have trouble holding the cards, you can use a tray or card-holder. So bridge doesn't require physical effort.

[barmar]

Many activities, including ballroom dancing, ballet, etc. require expertise and athletic ability, but I wouldn't want to see them in the Olympics either.

The IOC recognizes competitive balroom dancing as a sport. But due to limits on the number of events, and afforts to reduce them, they aren't included in the Olympic Games.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballroom_dance#Competitive_dancing

[32519]

Kite flying

[blackshoe]

One of these days a game is going to fall apart because everyone insists they have to be stationary.

[1eyedjack]

Stop Press:

 

 

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/and-finally/bridge-not-a-sport-rules-tribunal-30040426.html

 

[barmar]

Yeah, the tax court is who I regularly rely on for definitions.

 

I'll bet they also have their own opinion about what constitutes a "marriage".

[1eyedjack]

To be fair, the tribunal went to great pains to clarify that it was purely considering the definition in the context of the legislation laid down in the EU directive and devolved UK legislation for VAT. They acknowledged that it was accepted as a sport for the purposes of IOC and Charity Commission definitions but considered that not relevant to the matter put before them.

 

But I have seen wording like this trotted out often enough. Having made up their minds what in their view the right answer should be, they then go to a lot of pains to try to prevent any possibility of appeal on the grounds that this or that factor has not been considered, by expressly showing in their obiter or ratio that the issues had been considered and then dismissed. There are for example some paragraphs acknowledging that mental acuity in an ageing population is demonstrably enhanced by playing bridge, and then pondering whether there is an "age-ist" problem with denying the geriatrics their VAT relief, followed by some tortuous rationale showing how it is all irrelevant, just in case someone were to take the point to the next level. It all looks a bit obvious, when you read the transcript with a suitably jaded view.

[barmar]

I understand. My flip reply was more of a commentary on why the government should have tax laws that care about the distinction between games and sports -- why are the latter tax-exempt?

 

This also comes up in the legal issues over same-sex marriages. Many people wonder why the government should be defining "marriage" and "family", instead of leaving it to individuals and religions. But as long as we have the government regulating insurance companies (who have family plans), banks (who have joint accounts for married couples), doctors and hospitals (spouses are allowed to make medical decisions for each other), and many other commercial entities (not to mention the tax laws of the government itself) that give special rights to spouses and family members, they need to have a clear definition.

[Vampyr]

The UK government has even stranger ways of defining what is subject to VAT and what is not.