Acol or more general weak NT issue

[Cyberyeti]

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You open 1♣ (playing all suits 4+ cards intending playing a weak NT to rebid 1N), the overcall gives you an issue.

 

If you don't feel this is a problem and this hand is an easy pass (or 2♣ rebid), upgrade the small heart to the Q.

 

Do you rebid 1N anyway, stops are for wimps ? If you don't, what do you do ?

[Zelandakh]

A 1NT rebid does not absolutely promise a stopper and ♣AKQxx is a perfectly fine suit for bidding twice if you cannot stomach that.

[DaveB]

When playing a 4 card major and weak no trump system,it is normal to play double as a flawed No Trump rebid in this type of auction.

[TylerE]

What would a double show in your system. I'm not normally one for stoppers, but this is one situation where I absolutely detest bidding NT without one. Great way to get to a no-play 3NT, while we have plenty of ways of getting to it later and more methodically.

[Zelandakh]

Not so sure about that Dave - certainly NT doubles are the norm after a 2 level overcall but at the 1 level using this double for hearts makes a lot of sense.

[DaveB]

Well, with (most) non minimum hands with 5 clubs and 4 hearts you have a reverse of 2H.

With minimum hands you have a pass.

So double to show 4H is VERY rarely required.

In the mean time X to show flawed NT solves this very common situation.

 

It does not deny 4H so you may very well be able to get back to hearts if that is where you belong.

After all you may have to bid your 5C and 4H hand after it is partner who bids 1S.

[cherdano]

A 1NT rebid does not absolutely promise a stopper and ♣AKQxx is a perfectly fine suit for bidding twice if you cannot stomach that.

A stopperless 1NT rebid seems a bad idea when the suit was bid on our right. Rebidding 2♣ (which most club players seem to do) does not show your values.

[mfa1010]

Double should be the 15-17 NT or equivalent. It is intolerable to bid 1N here with xxx in spades.

[steve2005]

Not so sure about that Dave - certainly NT doubles are the norm after a 2 level overcall but at the 1 level using this double for hearts makes a lot of sense.

You don't need to double for hearts and a min hand. if partner has hearts they will have enough values to bid again. if you have hearts with reversing values you bid hearts. so double should be card-showing usually a flawed NT.

 

i agree with mfa1010

[gordontd]

if partner has hearts they will have enough values to bid again.

What makes you believe that?

[akwoo]

This is from a K-S with adapted Walsh (responder bids a 4 card major in preference to diamonds with any hand too weak to invite over a 15-17 1N rebid) perspective, and I'm not an expert, but...

 

I think PASS should show the 15-17 1N hand! And after you pass, partner should bid accordingly.

 

You can double with hearts, raise with diamonds, rebid with long clubs. The only unbalanced hands you don't have a bid for are the ones with spades. Those are rare, and 2♣ is almost always still a safe landing spot if partner doubles to reopen.

[jogs]

Looks like a support double. You have semi denied a good four card major.

[Cyberyeti]

X would show hearts, we open 1♣ with a strong NT 4♣4♥32.

 

As I said, if you would rebid 2♣, what would you do if the small heart was the Q and you had a 17 count.

[Zelandakh]

If you are too strong for Pass, 2♣ or 1NT (or just cannot avoid vomiting at the thought of the last) then the next step up is 2♠, which is often 18+ without a stop. I think a pair has to decide its own borders between Pass, 1NT and 2♠ on big balanced hands without a good stop.

 

Incidentally, there was a comment earlier about rebidding 1NT getting to a stupid 3NT. That is a completely stupid point because obviously if you play a style where 1NT does not promise a stopper you check back for it before committing. The style is not without its problems but that is not at the top of the list.

 

I also see nothing "unmethodical" about an auction that runs "I have 15-17 balanced"; "Great, what about a stopper?"; "Sorry, not today"; "OK, let's not play 3NT then." In fact, the main strength of playing that way is that this tends to be more methodical than: "I have something"; "I have something too!"; "Do you have anything in spades?", "Nope," where you are at least as high (often higher) and know less about the hands.

[cherdano]

Incidentally, there was a comment earlier about rebidding 1NT getting to a stupid 3NT. That is a completely stupid point because obviously if you play a style where 1NT does not promise a stopper you check back for it before committing. The style is not without its problems but that is not at the top of the list.

 

I also see nothing "unmethodical" about an auction that runs "I have 15-17 balanced"; "Great, what about a stopper?"; "Sorry, not today"; "OK, let's not play 3NT then." In fact, the main strength of playing that way is that this tends to be more methodical than: "I have something"; "I have something too!"; "Do you have anything in spades?", "Nope," where you are at least as high (often higher) and know less about the hands.

Zel, the problem is right-siding. Usually, right-siding is very overvalued. But here, with a 5-card suit bid on your right, this is the one situation where right-siding 3NT can be extremely important. Partner's Kx stopper won't be very useful if we play 3NT from our side.

 

This is very different to auctions of the form 1m (1H) 1S (P), where everybody plays (or should play) that bidding 1NT does not promise a stopper.

[Cyberyeti]

If you are too strong for Pass, 2♣ or 1NT (or just cannot avoid vomiting at the thought of the last) then the next step up is 2♠, which is often 18+ without a stop. I think a pair has to decide its own borders between Pass, 1NT and 2♠ on big balanced hands without a good stop.

 

Incidentally, there was a comment earlier about rebidding 1NT getting to a stupid 3NT. That is a completely stupid point because obviously if you play a style where 1NT does not promise a stopper you check back for it before committing. The style is not without its problems but that is not at the top of the list.

 

I also see nothing "unmethodical" about an auction that runs "I have 15-17 balanced"; "Great, what about a stopper?"; "Sorry, not today"; "OK, let's not play 3NT then." In fact, the main strength of playing that way is that this tends to be more methodical than: "I have something"; "I have something too!"; "Do you have anything in spades?", "Nope," where you are at least as high (often higher) and know less about the hands.

 

Sorry, I should have said, adding the Q♥ does not make you too strong for your 1N rebid (many people play 15-17, we play even wider than that), but I was trying to take pass and 2♣ out of the equation.

 

Our problem was different.

 

I bid 1N which would normally hold a stop and the auction proceeded as in the diagram, putting partner in the hot seat.

 

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Is there a problem here ?

[Zelandakh]

Is there a problem here ?

Clearly there is a problem and cherdano already mentioned it. More to the point it is clear that you and your partner drew different lines here. If you can rebid 1NT on this hand then Responder has to check back. It might continue [1♣ - 1♦ - (1♠); 1NT -] 2♠; 3♣ - 3♠; 4♦ - 5♦. Not the world's best contract for sure but better than 3NT from the North side.

 

By the way, your wide-ranging 1NT rebid is problematic enough when they pass and I think you should definitely consider dropping it after an overcall if you have any alternatives. For a 1NT rebid to be both wide-ranging and not promise a stopper is really pushing the boat out. One or the other!

[Vampyr]

Looks like a support double. You have semi denied a good four card major.

 

I would be very surprised if the OP were playing support doubles.

[Cyberyeti]

Clearly there is a problem and cherdano already mentioned it. More to the point it is clear that you and your partner drew different lines here. If you can rebid 1NT on this hand then Responder has to check back. It might continue [1♣ - 1♦ - (1♠); 1NT -] 2♠; 3♣ - 3♠; 4♦ - 5♦. Not the world's best contract for sure but better than 3NT from the North side.

 

By the way, your wide-ranging 1NT rebid is problematic enough when they pass and I think you should definitely consider dropping it after an overcall if you have any alternatives. For a 1NT rebid to be both wide-ranging and not promise a stopper is really pushing the boat out. One or the other!

 

Our agreement is that it does promise a stopper, but I couldn't see any alternative. The wide range 1N is essential in this situation in our system as some other hands become unbiddable without it. Funnily enough this is the first time in 15 years playing this system that I've really had a problem.

 

The problem was that partner cracked 4♥ (3N was making, the hand that hadn't bid had both aces), and this duly wrapped up 11 tricks with E 6601, it was difficult to visualise on our combined 25 count that we have to take a save.

[mfa1010]

Our agreement is that it does promise a stopper, but I couldn't see any alternative. The wide range 1N is essential in this situation in our system as some other hands become unbiddable without it. Funnily enough this is the first time in 15 years playing this system that I've really had a problem.

 

Maybe so because you care so little about right-siding here.

 

I would prefer 30 push-ups to 1N with ♠xxx and would hate it also with Axx, Kxx etc.

[Zelandakh]

OK, then I think in your system you probably need to include 15-bad17 without a stop as a possibility with a pass here and cue with a good 17 or better and no stop. Since you have X = hearts, the hands within the pass are all going to have good defence and low ODR so you can probably survive this.

[Cyberyeti]

Maybe so because you care so little about right-siding here.

 

I would prefer 30 push-ups to 1N with ♠xxx and would hate it also with Axx, Kxx etc.

 

Most of the time, the auction proceeds after the 1N rebid 2♣(enquiry)-2♦(minimum no 4M)-2♠(what you got)-3♣(not totally happy about my spades, 5 clubs) and I've got this off my chest nicely, unfortunately it didn't go like that.

 

I don't like the situation much either.

[jogs]

X would show hearts, we open 1♣ with a strong NT 4♣4♥32.

 

As I said, if you would rebid 2♣, what would you do if the small heart was the Q and you had a 17 count.

 

That's dated thinking. It overvalues pointcount and doesn't appreciate the length and strength of the suit. Game theory would suggest opening the better four-card suit.

[Zelandakh]

Game theory would suggest opening the better four-card suit.

As someone who has studied Game Theory (and got the equivalent of a First in it) I will say that this statement is completely meaningless unless you back it up in some way. Bridge has been moving away from such considerations constantly for over 60 years now. What new breakthrough have you found in the scientific research to reverse this trend?

[mfa1010]

Most of the time, the auction proceeds after the 1N rebid 2♣(enquiry)-2♦(minimum no 4M)-2♠(what you got)-3♣(not totally happy about my spades, 5 clubs) and I've got this off my chest nicely, unfortunately it didn't go like that.

 

I don't like the situation much either.

 

In one single misguided and unnecessary bid we have flushed 3N down the drain every time partner's spade stopper is vulnerable. It is a limited success that might be able to diagnoze our disaster already during bidding. Anything else (p, 2c, 2d) >> 1N imho.