Pitfalls of conventions?

[phikappaph]

We are trying to use more conventions as a group where I play bridge and a 2 sets of questions came up.

 

First: Michaels and Unusual NoTrump. Opponent opens 1 club and I have 5 spades and 5 diamonds. Is there a bid announcing my distributional hand? 2 clubs is Michaels announcing both majors. 2Nt is Unusual announcing the lesser two suits, namely hearts and diamonds.

 

With regard to Michaels, when the BBO Robot bids 2NT over my Michaels cue bid, the alert is telling me to bid my minor. Yet when I read about Michaels, which is far more complex than I realized, I do not see this as a set bid. It works well but is the 2NT bid simply an extension of the 1nt bid over an opening saying partner is not crazy about my suit or is BBO robot adding something?

 

 

Next: Support raises. Perhaps BBO robots have their own clan but I get confused and can not figure out if the following raises are part of SAYC, 2/1, etc. or a little of each

 

I open 1 diamond, pass, partner bids 1 heart, rho bids 1 spade.

 

I get several options from the robots.

 

Raise to 2 spades

Raise to 2 hearts

Jump to 3 hearts,

doubling 1 spade,

jumping to 4 hearts.

 

I have usually viewed jumping to game as a close out bid but I notice that I miss a lot of slams with BBO robots. Am I missing something?

 

But the other bids are now confusing and I am uncertain if they mean something else if for example,the sequence of bidding is different. Specifically, what is the point count and trump holding for each of the raises and where does the support double fit into the bidding?

 

I think the support double is telling partner I only have 3 hearts along with the opening bid.

I think raising to 2 hearts is telling partner I have 4 hearts along with my opening points.

 

I am not sure what my bidding 2 spades would mean regarding hearts, if anything.

I have used the jump to 3 hearts as at least 4 card heart support and a good opening hand but unsure if partner was bidding on fumes.

 

I've gone over several SAYC materials and still am confused.

 

I also posted here but am not at all sure whether this is a "novice" or advanced issue.

 

Bridge was a lot easier when my dad taught me how to open with "quick tricks" and we were pros if we could ask for aces!

[jgillispie]

With regard to Michaels, there are quite a few different structures out there. I recommend the structure which, I believe, is laid out in Lawrence's Complete Book on Overcalls

 

As for support doubles, it seems like you understand the basics. Take the auction below:

 

1♣-P-1♥-1♠-X!

 

X is support, showing exactly 3 hearts. You could have 12 or 18 points (which would be clarified on the next round of bidding.

 

If the auction goes:

 

1♣-P-1♥-1♠-2♠

 

It depends on your agreements. For me, it shows some 15+ point hand with 4 card heart support. It is much more economical to bid 2S (which shouldn't be natural), allowing for more scientific bidding. However, I have seen it used for many other things, so be sure you and your partner are on the same wavelength.

[phikappaph]

If the auction goes:

 

1♣-P-1♥-1♠-2♠

 

It depends on your agreements. For me, it shows some 15+ point hand with 4 card heart support. It is much more economical to bid 2S (which shouldn't be natural), allowing for more scientific bidding. However, I have seen it used for many other things, so be sure you and your partner are on the same wavelength.

 

 

If 2 spades shows 4 hearts and 15 points, does 3 hearts say something different or you simply telling the same story for a lower bid?

[Mbodell]

Playing "normal" ACBL style of conventions there is no way to show diamonds and spades over a 1♣ opening.

 

Some people (small minority, it isn't standard) play other two suited overcalls that can show this (for instance, Bailey's which shows spades and another in this situation; or some play that cue bids show the top and bottom card with 2nt the lowest 2 and equal level correction of X to show the top 2).

 

Over 1♥-2♥ Michaels many people play that 2nt says bid your minor. Many, but not all, also play that bidding 3♣ directly there is pass or correct so the 2nt call should only be done with a hand that is too strong to be passed - at least if you have the "right" minor.

[Stephen Tu]

First: Michaels and Unusual NoTrump. Opponent opens 1 club and I have 5 spades and 5 diamonds. Is there a bid announcing my distributional hand? 2 clubs is Michaels announcing both majors. 2Nt is Unusual announcing the lesser two suits, namely hearts and diamonds.

Some combinations of suits cannot be shown in just one bid playing this particular set of conventions. You just have to overcall 1 spade and maybe show the diamonds later if warranted.

 

With regard to Michaels, when the BBO Robot bids 2NT over my Michaels cue bid, the alert is telling me to bid my minor. Yet when I read about Michaels, which is far more complex than I realized, I do not see this as a set bid. It works well but is the 2NT bid simply an extension of the 1nt bid over an opening saying partner is not crazy about my suit or is BBO robot adding something?

 

It's kind of a logic thing. When partner is 5-5, this is a shapely hand, it would be very rare that 2nt is a better contract than playing in one of the suits, so it's not logical to use 2nt as "natural, to play". So it is utilized to find out which minor, which you don't know yet. Playing this way you can also show a long (6+) minor of your own by bidding it, instead of having to play in one of partner's suits. Note that there is some set of players who prefer to play 3c after a 1M-2M michaels as "pass if 3c is your other suit, else bid 3d". This gives up on showing clubs, but does two things, one it takes a bit extra space & options from the opps, and secondly 2nt can now be reserved for invitational hands.

 

Next: Support raises. Perhaps BBO robots have their own clan but I get confused and can not figure out if the following raises are part of SAYC, 2/1, etc. or a little of each

 

[1d-p-1h-1s; ?]

 

Raise to 2 spades

Raise to 2 hearts

Jump to 3 hearts,

doubling 1 spade,

jumping to 4 hearts.

2h/3h/4h are your raises showing approx 12-15/16-18/19-21 "support points". These are fairly standard in natural systems, including SAYC. If you are playing "splinters" (not included in SAYC), you also have the option of 3S, which shows a 4H strength raise with a singleton/void spade which can help partner evaluate for slam.

 

Doubling 1 spade is a "support double", showing 3 cd support, any strength range, how strong is revealed later. It is NOT in SAYC. Most 2/1 players play them but it is not a required part of 2/1. The only really defining features of 2/1 are 5 cd majors, a forcing or semi-forcing 1nt response, and the strong 2/1 requirements. Every other gadget (including many that the GIB robots play) are just "popular gadgets that most advancing/expert players like", so that if you sit down with a 2/1 player you kind of assume they are in effect even if the extent of your discussion was "2/1 pard?"

 

Bidding 2 spades is not a raise, you don't raise an opponent's suit; it's called a "cue bid". It *denies* support in most standard approaches (jgillispie's agreement is very non-std), typically one does this with a very strong hand with long diamonds but no spade stopper.

 

I have usually viewed jumping to game as a close out bid but I notice that I miss a lot of slams with BBO robots. Am I missing something?

- jumping to game only closes out the bidding *if partner has previously limited his hand to a reasonably narrow range*. 1d-p-1h does not limit partner's hand, he can have 14+, even though he could have only 5-6. So if you jump to game showing enough to make it worth a shot opposite a 6 count, roughly a good 19-20 count, obviously with 13+ or so partner is entitled to bid again. Generally good bidding systems are designed to not have these bulky jumps to game when partner is still unlimited, but this particular sequence of 1m-1M-4M is one of the awkward ones that persists in std natural systems.

- BBO robots still have a lot of bugs in them, so sometimes it's them, not you.

[aguahombre]

Over 1♥-2♥ Michaels many people play that 2nt says bid your minor. Many, but not all, also play that bidding 3♣ directly there is pass or correct so the 2nt call should only be done with a hand that is too strong to be passed - at least if you have the "right" minor.

I know some people do use 3C as p/c, but it doesn't seem necessary. Whether advancer is weak or strong 2NT won't be passed, and all that treatment does is lose us the ability to play in our own long minor.

[Zelandakh]

Whether advancer is weak or strong 2NT won't be passed, and all that treatment does is lose us the ability to play in our own long minor.

This is perhaps not the right place for the discussion but I disagree with this. You also gain the ability to make convenient invites if you, for example, play responses of 3m = minor + min; 3♥ = ♣ + max; 3♠ = ♦ + max; others = strong type. A side benefit of this is that it mirrors the most common structure of Muiderberg if you are also playing that, and you can also use it beneficially in many NT defences (Capp, Multi-Landy, Asptro, etc). Having a modular build that handles all known suit + unknown suit situations is a good thing.

[Fluffy]

If the auction goes:

 

1♣-P-1♥-1♠-2♠

 

It depends on your agreements. For me, it shows some 15+ point hand with 4 card heart support. It is much more economical to bid 2S (which shouldn't be natural), allowing for more scientific bidding. However, I have seen it used for many other things, so be sure you and your partner are on the same wavelength.

 

..............

 

If 2 spades shows 4 hearts and 15 points, does 3 hearts say something different or you simply telling the same story for a lower bid?

 

Opener's cuebid is one of the very few that do not promise support, in fact it DENIES support, since you have double, 2♥, 3♥, 3♠, 4m and 4♥ to show support, you don't need any other. 2♠ is reserved for very strong hands in a minor, mostly looking for 3NT.

[Vampyr]

I know some people do use 3C as p/c, but it doesn't seem necessary. Whether advancer is weak or strong 2NT won't be passed, and all that treatment does is lose us the ability to play in our own long minor.

 

He meant passes in 3 of a minor.

[phikappaph]

Many thanks to all. Very useful to consider the 2nt vs. 3m (p/c)options. Had not given it effective thought. Upon reflection, with only 3 cards in doubt with the "Michaels" hand, my first inclination is to play the 2nt option to simply ask the minor suit be bid by the hand with the 5 card suits.

 

Being able to tell partner that I have exactly 3 cards in his/her suit probably does more to avoid terrible contracts than any other bid, except, of course, pass-- something I should do more often.

 

I will digest this all and then come back to ask for help with the other opiate BBO Robots are hooked on: New Minor Forcing.

[steve2005]

problem with using 3♣/3♦ as 2 suiter you lose the natural pre-empt which is effective.

also Ghestem(3♣) has the same problem