Kungsgeten Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 I've been thinking about 4 card majors recently (very popular here in Sweden) and aggressiveness in natural systems. Playing 4 card majors and strong no trump makes opening 1M a potentially preemptive bid (for both sides ofcourse), the discussion has been had before. The preemptive merits of the weak no trump has also been discussed, with one of the major downsides being missing 4-4 major fits when it is "our hand" (responder has constructive values but to little to invite). Do you know of a system using a weak no trump which denies a 4 card major? The main idea for such a system would be an aggressive but fairly natural style. Perhaps something like: 1♣ = 2+ suit; any 15--17 balanced (even with a five card major) or natural unbalanced1♦ = 5+ suit, unbalanced1♥/♠ = (11)12--14 balanced/4441 with 4+ major or 18--19 balanced with 5-card major or 5+ major unbalanced1NT = (11)12--14 no 4+ major, may be semibalanced like 5422 or 6322 18--19 NT in such a system would be opened at the 2-level, perhaps dedicating 2♣ or 2♦ for this as the Italians do or play 2C as 18--19 balanced or strong and play some sort of transfer structure over this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 Do you know of a system using a weak no trump which denies a 4 card major?Matchpoint Precision (book by C. C. Wei, Ron Andersen) see:http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/44231-match-point-precision-1nt-bid-no-4-card-majors/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 I am a big fan, but there doesn't seem to be much written about it. Currently I am using 11-14 no 4CM, with2C = diamonds any strength, or invitational any shape; Keri-like2D, 2H = Jacoby (signoff or GF, some extra followups for the GF hands)2S = both minors2N = clubs, weak or strong3x = natural, forcing but there is certainly merit in using 2M to play, if you can decide how you want to arrange other hands between 2C and 2D. It feels really odd not needing Stayman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 I have played Match Point Precision with the opening 1NT, 13-15, denying a 4-cd major. I have graduated to playing an opening bid of 1♦ promising a 4-cd major. Now use 2♣ and 2♦ opening bids as 6 of the minor or 5 of the minor and 4 of the other minor. I am very happy with this scheme Reference: The Diamond Major - http://www.bridgeclu...ude/Diamond.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 I played a system based on this concept for a while in the mid 1990s. There are a few additions and differences to your structure. 1. After a 1M opening, we used cooperative doubles (usually showing the balance of points and 4 good trumps or five weakish trumps) against overcalls. The point is that we are assumed to have a weak no trump with four of that major. We basically pull the double with a distributional hand unless we have three trumps, and leave the double in with a balanced hand. If partner has a rock-crusher double, he passes and waits for us to double. 2. I put the balanced 18-19 through 1♦-1M-1NT. I personally find this works well. Don't just put it through 2♦ because the Italians do! 3. We played some interesting responses to 1NT. 2♣ = a sign-off in any suit, or various invitational hands2♦ = GF relay2♥/♠ = invitational2NT = pick a minor3♣/♦ = pre3♥/♠ = splinter In essence, the system is pretty simple and brutally aggressive if you open 1M with most weak 4x5x hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I played a system based on this concept for a while in the mid 1990s. There are a few additions and differences to your structure. 1. After a 1M opening, we used cooperative doubles (usually showing the balance of points and 4 good trumps or five weakish trumps) against overcalls. The point is that we are assumed to have a weak no trump with four of that major. We basically pull the double with a distributional hand unless we have three trumps, and leave the double in with a balanced hand. If partner has a rock-crusher double, he passes and waits for us to double. 2. I put the balanced 18-19 through 1♦-1M-1NT. I personally find this works well. Don't just put it through 2♦ because the Italians do! 3. We played some interesting responses to 1NT. 2♣ = a sign-off in any suit, or various invitational hands2♦ = GF relay2♥/♠ = invitational2NT = pick a minor3♣/♦ = pre3♥/♠ = splinter In essence, the system is pretty simple and brutally aggressive if you open 1M with most weak 4x5x hands.would this structure still work, if 1NT only denied a 4 card spade suit? With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Develop two avenues. First, because 1NT(I like 10-12) has little Major suit interest (only 5+M need explore M-fit), jump to 3C,3D (~0-10 with 6-suit or M:2-2 and a 5-suit) eagerly and takeout to 2C,2D(~0-10, 4+suit even as a pre-scramble) responding to 1NT.Jump their Majors. Second, put minor 1-suiters (little Major interest) into 2C,2D (10-16, 5+suit) openers. Take away the 1-level when we won't need Major exploring.Minors shouldn't play below 3-level against anyone asking "where are the Majors?", so get there quick.Leave opponents little room to decide their Major game is/not on. Esp as minor takeouts could be 0-10 with or without defense tricks. Leave them 'find their fit' AND 'how high?' starting over 3C,3D. How else do you hope to win in those 'we have a minor' against 'they have a Major' hands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 would this structure still work, if 1NT only denied a 4 card spade suit? With kind regardsMarlowe 1NT would now contain hearts, which seems at odds with the ethos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 1NT would now contain hearts, which seems at odds with the ethos.Sry, I dont understand this comment, may or may be due to the fact, that I am nota native speaker.To clarify: In my regular partnership we play, that 1NT basically denies only spades,and currently we are using the regular followup, but I am on the lookout for structures,that make use of this additional restriction of the NT opening bid. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Sry, I dont understand this comment, may or may be due to the fact, that I am nota native speaker.To clarify: In my regular partnership we play, that 1NT basically denies only spades,and currently we are using the regular followup, but I am on the lookout for structures,that make use of this additional restriction of the NT opening bid. With kind regardsMarlowe Well it's not a majorless no trump, which appears to be the topic. You may as well ask, would the structure work if 1NT contained 4 and 5 card majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungsgeten Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 would this structure still work, if 1NT only denied a 4 card spade suit? With kind regardsMarlowe Actually I think you could play something similar, if you'd like. 1NT (denies 4 spades)--2C = Sign off in any suit or various INV2D = GF relay or INV with 4 hearts2M = INV2NT = Pick a minor3m = Pre3M = Splinter 1NT--2D;2H = Any with 4+ clubs (but not 5 clubs and 4 hearts)..2S = Relay....2N = 4+ diamonds......3C = Relay........3D = 5-4 minors..........3H = Relay............3S = 2-2-4-5............3N = 2-2-5-4........3H = 2-3-4-4........3S = 3-2-4-4....3C = 4 hearts......3D = Relay........3H = 2-4-3-4........3S = 3-4-2-4....3D = 2-3-3-5....3H = 3-2-3-5....3S = 3-3-2-5....3N = 3-3-3-4..2N = INV with 4 hearts 2S = Max with 4+ diamonds (but not 5 diamonds and 4 hearts)..2N = Relay....3C = 4-4 diamonds and hearts....3D+ = As 2NT answer below..3N = Pass or correct to 4H 2N = Min with 4+ diamonds, not 4 hearts..3C = Relay....3D = 2-3-5-3....3H = 3-2-5-3....3S = 3-3-5-2....3N = 3-3-4-3 3C = 4 hearts and a 5 card minor..3D = Relay....3H = 2-4-2-5....3S = 2-4-5-2..3H = INV 3D = 2-4-4-3 min..3H = To play 3H = 3-4-4-2 min Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Hi, 1NT (denies 4 spades)--2C = Sign off in any suit or various INV what are the inv. hands? #1 bal. inv.#2 single suite in a min.#3 4+ hearts, 5+ spades? => shown by bidding 2S over the 2D relais?#4 ??? With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 FWIW, playing MOSCITO I've found it useful to restrict whether the NT opener holds a 4 card major of a given range.Modern MOSCITO uses an 11+ - 14 HCP 1NT opening Holding 4 Hearts, the 1NT opener denies a balanced hand with 11+ - 12 HCPHolding 4 Spades, the 1NT opener denies a balanced hand with 13 - 14 HCP I've found that this works pretty well It increases the likelihood that opener can show spades at the 1 levelIf opener shows a heart suit and he's balanced, he has extra strength which will prove helpful if partner is balancingThere's not as much need for invitational sequences after Stayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kungsgeten Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Hi, 1NT (denies 4 spades)--2C = Sign off in any suit or various INV what are the inv. hands? #1 bal. inv.#2 single suite in a min.#3 4+ hearts, 5+ spades? => shown by bidding 2S over the 2D relais?#4 ??? With kind regardsMarlowe I do not know the original structure, only thought about the relays. I would probably use: 1NT--2C; 2D (forced):2M = To play2NT = INV3m = INV3H = INV with 5-5 majors3S = GF with 5-5 majors Holding 5 spades and 4 hearts would be a problem, perhaps 1NT--2S (INV with 5 spades);pass = Min (you may play in a 5-2 spade fit instead of 4-4 hearts sometimes)2NT = Max with 2 spades. Now 3H can ask about 4 hearts.3NT = Max with 3 spades, suggestion to play4S = Max with 3+ spades You could also have 1NT--2S; 2NT as minimum with 2 spades and 4 hearts, and use 3H as max with 2 spades and 4 hearts. The problem is ofcourse that you tell a whole lot about opener's hand. This is true for 1NT--2D response too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I've also played that in the context of a 4-cards major variant of precision, but with a tweak: 1NT = weak. If max, 4M possible. Then.... 1NT 2C2M --> automatically shows a max 1NT xfer3M --> 4 cards, hence max It worked fine.. and it would have worked even better if pard didn't keep forgetting the 1NT escape mechanism LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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