Variable forcing pass

[dick payne]

Variable Forcing Pass

A variable forcing pass is a means of preventing frivolous interference over a strong club. There is no one version of V.F.P any more than there is only one version of a one club system. Any one club system can be converted to V.F.P at the flick of a switch.

Assume a basic one club system that has a strong club of 16+ points, a negative response of 0-8, and natural responses of 9+ points. Dealer and second hand bid from 1♦ to 4♠ exactly as in the parent system. Dealer’s opening bid of 1♣ shows 9-12 points, the difference between a negative response and a genuine opening bid. Pass by dealer or second hand shows 0-8 or 16+ points

The opposition is not inconvenienced. Over 1♣ they can open as normal and double with a hand which would have opened 1♣ in their system. If second hand has an opening bid it is probable that dealer is weak, they should ignore the pass

Third hand bids must be crafted so that they are sensible bids regardless of whether partner is weak or strong. 1♣ is weak or strong 0-8 or16+. The simplest responses are that 1♦ to 1♠ are natural 9-15 points with 5+ cards in the suit. 1NT can be a flat 9-15, but this may be dangerous, it is probably better to make 1NT a positive in clubs. A flat 9-15 would be included in a 1♦ response. Over the third hand bids of 1♥ and 1♠ dealer passes with 0-8 and with a strong hand bids exactly as if he had opened a strong club. After the third hand bid of 1NT, the sign off is 2♣, all other rebids are game forcing . The rebid over 1♦ is 1NT game forcing; pass, 1♥, and 1♠ are looking for a safe haven at the one level

Third and fourth hand bids at the two level are open to interpretation. Whatever meaning they are given the point range must be 9-15 (game if partner is strong, no game if he is weak) Two suiters and six card suits are probably best

It has been said that there may be vibes as to whether a pass is weak or strong. If there were such vibes the only ones to profit from them would be the opponents. Third hand bids are closely defined and do not vary at all.

[Kungsgeten]

I believe there are several systems using a weak/strong forcing pass, but most of them (which I've seen) wants to make "preemptive" calls with the in-between hands; removing space from the opponents. Using 1C as the in-between hands probably work, but I do not really see the benefits of this compared to strong club (well perhaps the pass opening is more protected from interference, which is pretty nice). I'm guessing most people who wants to play forcing pass want to use weak openings.

 

Here's Symmetric Relay Pass, a system played by a couple of pairs in Sweden:

 

pass = 0--7 / 17+

1C = any 12--16 unbalanced / 15--17 balanced

1D = Nebulous. 8--11 balanced / 8--11 unbalanced with a 4 card major and 4+ minor / 8--11 with 5-5 minors

1M = 5+ majors, 8--11

1N = 12--14

2m = 6+ minor or 5 card minor and 4 cards in the other minor. Denies a 4 card major. 8--11

2H = 5-5 majors, 8--11

2S = Weak, 3--7

2N = 9--11 balanced without a 4 card major. Only used non-vul and not mandatory.

 

Here's a link to more details: http://bridge.winge.se/mediawiki/index.php/Symetriskt_Rel%C3%A4pass

 

The system creator of the above also constructed another variant, called Symmetric Auby Relay:

 

pass = Same as above

1C = Same as above

1D = 4+ hearts unbalanced (or 5332), may have longer minor, 8--11

1H = 4+ spades unbalanced (or 5332), may have longer minor, 8--11

1S = 8--11 balanced, no 5 card major

1N = Same as above

2m = Same as above

2M = Weak

2N = Same as above

 

I think the original system notes are only available in Swedish, but I've played a variant of the system and wrote the notes in English: http://www.snortingmaradonas.se/erik/pass2000.pdf

 

You could also play natural, with wide range openings:

 

pass = 0--7 / 16+

1X = Any natural system, 8--15

1NT = 12--15

2X = Some kind of preempt

 

Some ideas I've thought of but haven't tried:

 

 

Fantunes inspired

 

pass = 0--7(8) / 17+

1C = 12--16 clubs or balanced

1D = 12--16 with 4+ diamonds, unbalanced

1M = 12--16 with 5+ major

1NT = 9--11

2X = Natural unbalanced with 8--11

 

Using a two-way pass and a Swedish club

 

pass = 0--7 / any 13--16 unbalanced / 15--17 balanced

1C = 8--11 balanced / 17+

1D = 8--12 with 4+ diamonds, unbalanced

1M = 8--12 with 5+ major

1NT = 12--14

2C = Usually 6+ clubs, 8--12

2D = Precision style (three-suiter with short diamonds), 8--12

2M = 4 card major and 5+ minor, 8--12 (not mandatory, might be opened 1D or 2C instead)

2NT = 21--22

 

Moscito and Fantunes inspired

 

pass = 0--7 any / 8--9 balanced / 17+

1C = 8--11 with both majors / 12--16 with 6+ clubs / balanced 10--13

1D = 4+ hearts unbalanced (or 5332), may have longer minor, 12--16

1H = 4+ spades unbalanced (or 5332), may have longer minor, 12--16

1S = 5-4 minors or 6+ diamonds, 12--16

1N = 14--16

2X = Fantunes, but 8--11 (natural unbal, 2M denies other major)

[the hog]

About 30 years ago these systems were tried and and proven to be ineffective. In the days of the sp Poles and M&B alot of these ideas were tried and discredited. Nardin and Lodge played something similar. Occasionally you find some juniors wishing to try something in countries were these systems are allowed.Nothing beats the real FP systems.

[dick payne]

Variable Forcing Pass

A variable forcing pass is a means of preventing frivolous interference over a strong club. There is no one version of V.F.P any more than there is only one version of a one club system. Any one club system can be converted to V.F.P at the flick of a switch.

Assume a basic one club system that has a strong club of 16+ points, a negative response of 0-8, and natural responses of 9+ points. Dealer and second hand bid from 1♦ to 4♠ exactly as in the parent system. Dealer’s opening bid of 1♣ shows 9-12 points, the difference between a negative response and a genuine opening bid. Pass by dealer or second hand shows 0-8 or 16+ points

The opposition is not inconvenienced. Over 1♣ they can open as normal and double with a hand which would have opened 1♣ in their system. If second hand has an opening bid it is probable that dealer is weak, they should ignore the pass

Third hand bids must be crafted so that they are sensible bids regardless of whether partner is weak or strong. 1♣ is weak or strong 0-8 or16+. The simplest responses are that 1♦ to 1♠ are natural 9-15 points with 5+ cards in the suit. 1NT can be a flat 9-15, but this may be dangerous, it is probably better to make 1NT a positive in clubs. A flat 9-15 would be included in a 1♦ response. Over the third hand bids of 1♥ and 1♠ dealer passes with 0-8 and with a strong hand bids exactly as if he had opened a strong club. After the third hand bid of 1NT, the sign off is 2♣, all other rebids are game forcing . The rebid over 1♦ is 1NT game forcing; pass, 1♥, and 1♠ are looking for a safe haven at the one level

Third and fourth hand bids at the two level are open to interpretation. Whatever meaning they are given the point range must be 9-15 (game if partner is strong, no game if he is weak) Two suiters and six card suits are probably best

It has been said that there may be vibes as to whether a pass is weak or strong. If there were such vibes the only ones to profit from them would be the opponents. Third hand bids are closely defined and do not vary at all.

[dick payne]

As suggested above there is a general tendency for 1C players to use the two level aggressively, and also to make other opening bids as destructive as possible consistent with one’s own constructive bidding. This is, no doubt, sound technique, but it was not the objective of the proposed VFP. I have been playing VFP for twenty-five years ever since the EBU rescinded experimental and restricted licenses, It can be played at local bridge clubs at the discretion of the committee. I have played VFP at two local clubs with three different partners, no-one has ever objected to its use, and that was the intention of the system.

Over the years the system has developed as is to be expected, Natural , control and point count responses have all been tried. The most successful have proved to be point count responses with the pass being 0-6 or 16+ and a semi-positive showing 7-8 points

Two level bids by opener are basically constructive 2C is 4-4 or better in the majors with 8-11 points, 2D is a weak two in a major 6-10 points 2H,2S, and 2NT are constructive twos showing six to four losers and 8-15 points.

If anyone would like full details of the system, email me on dick.payne@lineone.net

[the hog]

Why would anyone want details of something that is ineffective? I notice that you have conveniently ignored every comment I have made.

[dick payne]

The Hog,

Since I have been working on the system for 25 years ever since the EBU turned down Sowter and Lodge's VFP you cannot reaklly expect me to give it up because you have dismissed it in five lines

[the hog]

True, some people still play Buller as well I guess.

[Zelandakh]

Hello dick and welcome to the BBO forums.

 

As far as I know the theory of FP systems has never been disproven, indeed there is some evidence that they can be more efficient than standard methods, in particular the popular 0-7/8-12/13+ schemes. Strong/weak FP systems are a little different and I do not know of any detailed study or set of results providing any conclusive evidence one way or the other. What is certain is that playing highly unusual methods increases variance, which in turn tends to increase the chances of an upset regardless of the theoretically merits of a system.

[MickyB]

I'm not a fan of VFP either. The 16+ hands are much worse placed in competition than after a strong club or swedish/polish club.

 

http://dcrcbridge.blogspot.com/2007/03/dbt11-breaking-homogeneity-part-2.html

[Free]

As suggested above there is a general tendency for 1C players to use the two level aggressively, and also to make other opening bids as destructive as possible consistent with one’s own constructive bidding. This is, no doubt, sound technique, but it was not the objective of the proposed VFP. I have been playing VFP for twenty-five years ever since the EBU rescinded experimental and restricted licenses, It can be played at local bridge clubs at the discretion of the committee. I have played VFP at two local clubs with three different partners, no-one has ever objected to its use, and that was the intention of the system.

Over the years the system has developed as is to be expected, Natural , control and point count responses have all been tried. The most successful have proved to be point count responses with the pass being 0-6 or 16+ and a semi-positive showing 7-8 points

Two level bids by opener are basically constructive 2C is 4-4 or better in the majors with 8-11 points, 2D is a weak two in a major 6-10 points 2H,2S, and 2NT are constructive twos showing six to four losers and 8-15 points.

If anyone would like full details of the system, email me on dick.payne@lineone.net

Against poor players every system works great. The fact that you claim that point count responses are most successful says enough about your opponents and your system imo.

[the hog]

Hello dick and welcome to the BBO forums.

 

As far as I know the theory of FP systems has never been disproven, indeed there is some evidence that they can be more efficient than standard methods, in particular the popular 0-7/8-12/13+ schemes. Strong/weak FP systems are a little different and I do not know of any detailed study or set of results providing any conclusive evidence one way or the other. What is certain is that playing highly unusual methods increases variance, which in turn tends to increase the chances of an upset regardless of the theoretically merits of a system.

 

The op does NOT play a SP system. . The efficacy of these has long been shown in international competition. The op plays a variable pass system. The problems of such a system have long been shown in international competition as well. That is why they died a quick death even when playing SP systems was legal.

[fromageGB]

> Pass by dealer or second hand shows 0-8 or 16+ points

> The most successful (responses) have proved to be point count responses with the pass being 0-6 or 16+ and a semi-positive showing 7-8 points

 

I quite like the idea of the bidding going pass out when opponents have a normal 2♣ open.

[dick payne]

> Pass by dealer or second hand shows 0-8 or 16+ points

> The most successful (responses) have proved to be point count responses with the pass being 0-6 or 16+ and a semi-positive showing 7-8 points

 

I quite like the idea of the bidding going pass out when opponents have a normal 2♣ open.

Third hand bid is 1C 0-6 or 16+

[straube]

Hi Dick, glad you have joined us. Do I have this right? It's easier for me to see when I diagram it out.

 

P-0-8 OR 16+

.....1C-0-8 OR 16+

..........1D-0-8?

...............P-0-8?

...............etc-16+? assume pd has 0-8 most of the time

..........etc-16+? assume pd has 0-8 most of the time

.....1D-bal or D, 9-15

..........P-0-8

.........1M-M, 0-8

..........1N-16+

.....1M-M, 9-15

..........P-0-8

.........etc-16+

.....1N-C, 9-15

..........2C-0-8?

..........etc-GF

1C-9-12 any?

1D-D?, 13-15?

1H-H, 13-15

1S-S, 13-15

1N-bal, 13-15?

2L-various 1 and 2-suiters, 9-15

 

I think this works, but I would have a couple of concerns. One is that the 1C opening (1st and 2nd) seems like it needs to handle too many shapes. Could it be 5143 as well as 2155? I'd rather separate out limited hands based on suit information than divide them between 9-12 and 13-15. A smaller concern is that 1C-1D (0-7) auctions are difficult enough. Here you have to reserve a bid for the (rare) instances where you have 16 opposite 16 so that you get to the right slam. Last comment would be that you need to have some freedom of action for those 1st and 2nd 0-8s. They shouldn't have to pass all/most of 3/4 limited openings. Perhaps you can use a relay so that the relay ask announces 16+ and all other pass or bids denote the 0-8s. I mean P P 1S P 2S should probably be a simple raise. Etc.

 

I don't see a huge upside for this system. The idea seems to be based on concealing the big hands such that the opponents don't interfere, but that works against you, too. If I open a strong club and it's overcalled 1S, my partner can bid with x AQxxx Qxx xxxx but would be shut out if I start with pass (0-8 or 16+). So revealing my strength assists partner in competitive auction.

 

I've always thought that if the opponents were pesky enough such that they were always overcalling 1H or 1S or higher, that I might as well open 1D or even 1H to show 16+ as I wouldn't actually lose much room in doing so and I at least tell pd that I have a good hand.

 

My opponents more frequently overcall 1C than I would like, but often enough remain silent so that I'm basically happy with a strong club opening.

[dick payne]

Hi Dick, glad you have joined us. Do I have this right? It's easier for me to see when I diagram it out.

 

P-0-8 OR 16+

.....1C-0-8 OR 16+

..........1D-0-8?

...............P-0-8?

...............etc-16+? assume pd has 0-8 most of the time

..........etc-16+? assume pd has 0-8 most of the time

.....1D-bal or D, 9-15

..........P-0-8

.........1M-M, 0-8

..........1N-16+

.....1M-M, 9-15

..........P-0-8

.........etc-16+

.....1N-C, 9-15

..........2C-0-8?

..........etc-GF

1C-9-12 any?

1D-D?, 13-15?

1H-H, 13-15

1S-S, 13-15

1N-bal, 13-15?

2L-various 1 and 2-suiters, 9-15

 

I think this works, but I would have a couple of concerns. One is that the 1C opening (1st and 2nd) seems like it needs to handle too many shapes. Could it be 5143 as well as 2155? I'd rather separate out limited hands based on suit information than divide them between 9-12 and 13-15. A smaller concern is that 1C-1D (0-7) auctions are difficult enough. Here you have to reserve a bid for the (rare) instances where you have 16 opposite 16 so that you get to the right slam. Last comment would be that you need to have some freedom of action for those 1st and 2nd 0-8s. They shouldn't have to pass all/most of 3/4 limited openings. Perhaps you can use a relay so that the relay ask announces 16+ and all other pass or bids denote the 0-8s. I mean P P 1S P 2S should probably be a simple raise. Etc.

 

I don't see a huge upside for this system. The idea seems to be based on concealing the big hands such that the opponents don't interfere, but that works against you, too. If I open a strong club and it's overcalled 1S, my partner can bid with x AQxxx Qxx xxxx but would be shut out if I start with pass (0-8 or 16+). So revealing my strength assists partner in competitive auction.

 

I've always thought that if the opponents were pesky enough such that they were always overcalling 1H or 1S or higher, that I might as well open 1D or even 1H to show 16+ as I wouldn't actually lose much room in doing so and I at least tell pd that I have a good hand.

 

My opponents more frequently overcall 1C than I would like, but often enough remain silent so that I'm basically happy with a strong club opening.

[dick payne]

Straube,

There are as many types of VFP as there are one club systems. I am sure yours would work. The version I posted was a very basic variation. There have been many experiments and modifications over twenty-years. Your concern over losing the initiative of being dealer is valid. Effectively the hand is played as though LHO had dealt. It would appear that LHO has been given the chance to pre-empt, but in reality there is not much difference between 1C (strong) ( 3S ) and Pass (may be strong ) 3S. There is an agreement that a strong pass will always (nearly always) come back in, and in the protective position partner is known to hold 16+ points rather than the minimum values for normal protection. One other compensating advantage of losing the initiative of the opening bid is that it is easy to construct the definition of bids which would normally show opening values (1C,1D, and 2C in my variation)

The following is a brief outline of the opening bids, clearly there is no room to give all the continuations

Dealer and second hand

Pass 0-6 or 16+

1C 7-11 flattish or a natural 1C opener with 5+ clubs

1D 7-11 5+ diamonds or 12-15 4+diamonds

1H/1S 11-15 4+cards

1NT 10-12 or 12-14 vul

2C 7-11 4/4 or better in the majors

2D 6-10 a six card major

2H 8-15 5-5 or better in hearts and another suit

2S

[dick payne]

Straube,

There are as many types of VFP as there are one club systems. I am sure yours would work. The version I posted was a very basic variation. There have been many experiments and modifications over twenty-years. Your concern over losing the initiative of being dealer is valid. Effectively the hand is played as though LHO had dealt. It would appear that LHO has been given the chance to pre-empt, but in reality there is not much difference between 1C (strong) ( 3S ) and Pass (may be strong ) 3S. There is an agreement that a strong pass will always (nearly always) come back in, and in the protective position partner is known to hold 16+ points rather than the minimum values for normal protection. One other compensating advantage of losing the initiative of the opening bid is that it is easy to construct the definition of bids which would normally show opening values (1C,1D, and 2C in my variation)

The following is a brief outline of the opening bids, clearly there is no room to give all the continuations

Dealer and second hand

Pass 0-6 or 16+

1C 7-11 flattish or a natural 1C opener with 5+ clubs

1D 7-11 5+ diamonds or 12-15 4+diamonds

1H/1S 11-15 4+cards

1NT 10-12 or 12-15 vul

2C 7-11 4/4 or better in the majors

2D 6-10 a six card major

2H 8-15 6-4 losers 5-5 or better in hearts and another suit

2S 8-15 6-4 losers 5-5 or better in spades and a minor

2NT 8-15 6-4 losers 5-5 or better in the minors

Third and fourth hand

1C 0-6 or 16+

1D 9-15 points

1H 7-8 points

1S Golden negative 5-6 points any six card suit 1NT or double the opponents asks which

1NT Golden negative 5-6 points 4-4 or better in the majors 2C 9-15 six clubs 2D 8-15 a six card major 2H/2S/2NT as dealer sorry keep pressing wrong buttons Pass 1C 1H and Pass 1C 1D 1H Kokish 20+ points 1S reply shows 0-4 natural with 5-6 game forcing Pass 1H 1S(18+ game forcing anything but 1S 16-17 natural, bid if you can or pass) no room for other continuations

[dick payne]

Straube,

There are as many types of VFP as there are one club systems. I am sure yours would work. The version I posted was a very basic variation. There have been many experiments and modifications over twenty-years. Your concern over losing the initiative of being dealer is valid. Effectively the hand is played as though LHO had dealt. It would appear that LHO has been given the chance to pre-empt, but in reality there is not much difference between 1C (strong) ( 3S ) and Pass (may be strong ) 3S. There is an agreement that a strong pass will always (nearly always) come back in, and in the protective position partner is known to hold 16+ points rather than the minimum values for normal protection. One other compensating advantage of losing the initiative of the opening bid is that it is easy to construct the definition of bids which would normally show opening values (1C,1D, and 2C in my variation)

The following is a brief outline of the opening bids, clearly there is no room to give all the continuations

Dealer and second hand

Pass 0-6 or 16+

1C 7-11 flattish or a natural 1C opener with 5+ clubs

1D 7-11 5+ diamonds or 12-15 4+diamonds

1H/1S 11-15 4+cards

1NT 10-12 or 12-14 vul

2C 7-11 4/4 or better in the majors

2D 6-10 a six card major

2H 8-15 6-4 losers 5-5 or better in hearts and another suit

2S 8-15 6-4 losers 5-5 or better in spades and a minor

2NT 8-15 6-4 losers 5-5 or better in the minors

Third and fourth hand

1C 0-6 or 16+

1D 9-15 points

1H 7-8 points

1S A golden negative 5-6 points any six card suit 1NT or double the opponents asks which

1NT

[Zelandakh]

Silly question but why not just make the 1 level openings 7-15 across the board? So something like:

 

1♣ = 7-15 nat or 7-9 bal

1♦ = 7-15 nat or 10-12 bal (vul) or 13-15 bal (nv)

1M = 7-15, 5+ suit

1NT = 13-15 bal (vul) or 10-12 bal (nv)

 

As an aside you also appear to have no opening for a 3334 15 count.

[dick payne]

Silly question but why not just make the 1 level openings 7-15 across the board? So something like:

 

1♣ = 7-15 nat or 7-9 bal

1♦ = 7-15 nat or 10-12 bal (vul) or 13-15 bal (nv)

1M = 7-15, 5+ suit

1NT = 13-15 bal (vul) or 10-12 bal (nv)

 

As an aside you also appear to have no opening for a 3334 15 count.

Not at all silly I wanted to do this but couldn't 1C and 1D wide range are possible because 1D or double opponents game try over 1C 1NT or double opponents who bid at the two level game try over 1D. It just won't fit after 1M, combined with the fact that I play transfers in response to 1M Well spotted about 15 count vul 1NT is 12-15. At non vul 12-15 with 3334 shape opens 1C Responses to 1C 1D(game try) rebids 1H 7-11 5+ hearts 1S 7-11 5+ spades 1NT 7-11 no five card major not both four card majors which would have opened 2C 2C clubs only 12-15 2D/2H/2S 5+ clubs and exactly four cards in the second suit 11-15 2NT 12-15 flat

My problem is serving my system up in bite size pieces which may be of interest to others, without floundering in a morass of continuations I can easily email the full write up to anyone who is interested

[dick payne]

Silly question but why not just make the 1 level openings 7-15 across the board? So something like:

 

1♣ = 7-15 nat or 7-9 bal

1♦ = 7-15 nat or 10-12 bal (vul) or 13-15 bal (nv)

1M = 7-15, 5+ suit

1NT = 13-15 bal (vul) or 10-12 bal (nv)

 

As an aside you also appear to have no opening for a 3334 15 count.

[dick payne]

Not at all silly I wanted to do this but couldn't 1C and 1D wide range are possible because 1D or double opponents game try over 1C 1NT or double opponents who bid at the two level game try over 1D. It just won't fit after 1M, combined with the fact that I play transfers in response to 1M Well spotted about 15 count vul 1NT is 12-15. At non vul 12-15 with 3334 shape opens 1C Responses to 1C 1D(game try) rebids 1H 7-11 5+ hearts 1S 7-11 5+ spades 1NT 7-11 no five card major not both four card majors which would have opened 2C 2C clubs only 12-15 2D/2H/2S 5+ clubs and exactly four cards in the second suit 11-15 2NT 12-15 flat

My problem is serving my system up in bite size pieces which may be of interest to others, without floundering in a morass of continuations I can easily email the full write up to anyone who is interested

[Free]

Please stop quoting other people's posts without a comment.

[dick payne]

Free,

sorry, I have been pressing the wrong button. I hope I have got it now