mr1303 Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 [hv=pc=n&s=sakq752h864d7c954&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=2d(Weak)]133|200[/hv] From a recent teams match. No particular state of the match issues. Partner won't notice if you bid 2S with plenty of sighs. But do you anyway? How close is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whatever the rights and wrongs of bidding, hard to imagine anything other than bidding 2♠. With such a suit I expect I'd find a reason to bid even if I held three small diamonds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think you made a mistake, you must have meant that partner will sigh in the postmortem if I don't bid 2♠. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I would bid but it's close. With three small diamonds I would pass. Not sure about two small ones .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I do not think it is close at all. If you cannot bid with an AKQxxx major and shortage in their suit then the game is too hard. That the major is also spades is gravy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Last time I did that, partner jumped to game. I went down one. She asked me why the hell I bid with such a bad hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Last time I did that, partner jumped to game. I went down one. She asked me why the hell I bid with such a bad hand.She expected more than 6 tricks for a 2 level overcall? Perhaps it was just her immediate disappointment speaking and she would see it differently if she anaylsed the results later in peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 A seven loser hand and 5-6 tricks as well as diamond shortage is enough to bid 2♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 x post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 She expected more than 6 tricks for a 2 level overcall? Perhaps it was just her immediate disappointment speaking and she would see it differently if she anaylsed the results later in peace.You don't understand. I'm the guy in this partnership. Therefore, if something goes wrong, it is always my fault. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 You don't understand. I'm the guy in this partnership. Therefore, if something goes wrong, it is always my fault. :lol:I can point to plenty of counter examples. Unltimately, if she cannot face up to her own mistakes she will not be able to fully improve as a player so if you genuinely feel this is the cae you are not doing her any favours by playing along. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 2♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 There's a great deal of difference between "6 tricks with no hope of developing any more" and "3 or 4 tricks with lots of development opportunities with complementary stuff in partner's hand". In fact, it's the difference between a preempt and an opening bid. Those who would open preempts (like, say, AKQxxx and a singleton, and no other honour) 1♠, showing a "good opener", are happy to bid 2♠ with this hand. Those who would open this a strong 2♠, or 3♠ for that matter, aren't happy to bid 2♠ with this hand, because partner will go to game not with 4 tricks, but with a hand-full-of-helpers that will develop your opportunities into tricks. That same partner will not raise a 2♠ (or 3♠) preempt to game with that hand, because she knows that helpers are useless, only tricks count. I will bid 2♠ because I can't not - but I will take the blame for 4♠-1, or 5 or 6♠-1 when my partner can't take a joke. And it *will be* my fault. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 There's a great deal of difference between "6 tricks with no hope of developing any more" and "3 or 4 tricks with lots of development opportunities with complementary stuff in partner's hand". In fact, it's the difference between a preempt and an opening bid. Those who would open preempts (like, say, AKQxxx and a singleton, and no other honour) 1♠, showing a "good opener", are happy to bid 2♠ with this hand. Those who would open this a strong 2♠, or 3♠ for that matter, aren't happy to bid 2♠ with this hand, because partner will go to game not with 4 tricks, but with a hand-full-of-helpers that will develop your opportunities into tricks. That same partner will not raise a 2♠ (or 3♠) preempt to game with that hand, because she knows that helpers are useless, only tricks count. I will bid 2♠ because I can't not - but I will take the blame for 4♠-1, or 5 or 6♠-1 when my partner can't take a joke. And it *will be* my fault. I agree with everything you said, but there is something extra on this hand, complementary honors in partner´s hands will be on hearts and clubs, and they rate to be onside, even a Qxx can easily become a trick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 There's a great deal of difference between "6 tricks with no hope of developing any more" and "3 or 4 tricks with lots of development opportunities with complementary stuff in partner's hand". In fact, it's the difference between a preempt and an opening bid. Those who would open preempts (like, say, AKQxxx and a singleton, and no other honour) 1♠, showing a "good opener", are happy to bid 2♠ with this hand. Those who would open this a strong 2♠, or 3♠ for that matter, aren't happy to bid 2♠ with this hand, because partner will go to game not with 4 tricks, but with a hand-full-of-helpers that will develop your opportunities into tricks. That same partner will not raise a 2♠ (or 3♠) preempt to game with that hand, because she knows that helpers are useless, only tricks count. I will bid 2♠ because I can't not - but I will take the blame for 4♠-1, or 5 or 6♠-1 when my partner can't take a joke. And it *will be* my fault. The first sensible post in this thread.. If a raise to game goes off, it is YOUR fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighLow21 Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 2♠ only because I can't not -- and I have every reason to expect we will get 1 level too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Still not sure I understand the hesitancy. We are overcalling a weak opening, it's not like we are bidding 2♥ over 1♠ or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 2♠ it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Still not sure I understand the hesitancy. We are overcalling a weak opening, it's not like we are bidding 2♥ over 1♠ or something.I would *much rather* have this hand (with the pointed suits reversed, of course) when I bid 2♥ over 1♠ than in this case. Partner knows what I have when I do that, and I know where more of the points are (so it's much less likely that I'm going to be launched into game). Preempts *work*, and they work by taking up space so that you can't describe all the hands you have that you could describe if they had passed. If I pass this hand (which I won't, but maybe AKJ8xx and the same shape?), and partner doubles in fourth, I can bid 4♠ and be very happy (or, if you double really light in balance, 3♠; partner will DTRT). If I bid 2♠ and partner has a bit under the hand where they would double in fourth, they'll go to game, and we may go down if all he has is quacks and diamond cards. If I bid 2♠ and partner has a 16, 17 count, by the time he realizes we were joking we're in 5♠ (or, if he happens to have controls, will raise 5♠ KC response to slam) and we won't have any quick losers - but we won't have 12 winners either. If you overcall routinely on hands that are this weak, you're going to pay for it when partner with 10-12 doesn't know if you have this hand or the 5-spades 13-plus-a-singleton that you're "supposed to have" - and you'll pay in +170s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 If you overcall routinely on hands that are this weak, you're going to pay for it when partner with 10-12 doesn't know if you have this hand or the 5-spades 13-plus-a-singleton that you're "supposed to have" - and you'll pay in +170s.No, I'll pay in -50s after partner bids 3♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I will take blame for -100 in 4♠ - until partner gets the hand records and notices that without my 2♠ bid, we would have let them play 2♦, making. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I will take blame for -100 in 4♠ - until partner gets the hand records and notices that without my 2♠ bid, we would have let them play 2♦, making.For -90. :) Shame it was IMPs. Ruins a good punchline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 4, 2014 Report Share Posted February 4, 2014 For -90. :) Shame it was IMPs. Ruins a good punchline.It reminds me of something at my local club. A member had the license plate "MAKING 7". One of the old plates is hung in the club as a decoration. An unknown joker captioned it with a sticky note: +190 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I still remember my biggest KO recovery. I got told (I was a little busy, as I had switched to directing when I heard this) that we had won, having taken the second half 53-0. About 5 minutes later, the following percolates into my brain: "But we were +190 on a board. How do you win anything to zero when you're +190?" So I asked. The answer? The other team played in fourth suit forcing, -250, win 9. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted February 5, 2014 Report Share Posted February 5, 2014 I sort of love stove top rules---makes the game easy sometimes. My stove top rules for this hand call for a 2s bid unfavorable at IMPS. I have the expectation of 6 tricks opposite a balanced broke partner, I have at least 1 if not 2 defensive tricks and if p has an average amount of the expected remaining power I expect to make game. this hand meets all of these criteria so I have few qualms with bidding 2s. Note that this hand would not qualify for a 2s bid if p was a passed hand since partners average power expectation would be closer to 6 than 11. Where did 11 come from? rho opened a weak 2 so we generally expect around 9 power in their hand and we also have 9 so there are 22 power left. P will average 11 of those 22 and since lho is stronger than rho those 11 will gain a positional boost of around 15% making them worth about 12.5 (ie a tad over 4 tricks and we should have plenty of entries to lead up toward their honors). Will this formula always work NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO and once in a while you will turn in a really huge imp loss since it is still plausible for lho to have all the remaining spades and poor helpless partner is sitting there with 0454 and they just know a xx will only make things worse, that's life but a 2s here carries less risk than most normal 1 level opening bids especially when we open a 3/4 card minor. This is not MP where -500 is going to be worth close to zero at IMPS -500 is probably going to be minus 3-4 imps except in the rarest of occasions where lho has a ton of spades. What are we gaining for our risk??? the ability on average to make a vulnerable game. That's a pretty darn good risk vs reward ratio in my book. There are times silence is golden this just does not appear to be such a time:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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