Jinksy Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 [hv=pc=n&s=sahqj7dj73ca87632&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c1sp2sppdp]133|200[/hv] You’re playing 5cM with better minor. Teams, unfavourable (hands rotated for convenience). W is a strong club player, E is fairly weak. How do you understand the double? And what do you propose to do about it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Partner wants me to bid something and there is a good chance they do not have 4 hearts. I do not really need to think much more about it at this stage as I think bidding 3♣ is pretty clear. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Partner wants me to bid something and there is a good chance they do not have 4 hearts. I do not really need to think much more about it at this stage as I think bidding 3♣ is pretty clear.Why didn't North make a Neg-DBL at his first turn ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I've heard of this one - though you don't see them often these days. It's called a penalty double. It rather suggests the overcall was on a four-bagger, so this could be pretty brutal. Obviously I pass. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Why didn't North make a Neg-DBL at his first turn ? there is a good chance they do not have 4 heartsIf they were to have 4 hearts then they felt too weak to double last time around and now want to step in at the 3 level at unfavourable. In that case the opponents are not going to let us have it at 3♣ anyway. I know what you mean though - if partner were old school they would play this double as penalty. But if we were playing penalty doubles here then I would have felt under pressure not to pass last time around, since we suddenly have no way of competing on many simple part-score battles. Edit: you still play penalty doubles in this sequence Phil? I must be seriously out of touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Edit: you still play penalty doubles in this sequence Phil? I must be seriously out of touch. If I have, say, a 3244 with 7-9 HCP, I am happy to risk 2NT now. But for me, the logic of this auction dictates penalties, however "modern" one is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaffaCakes Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Looking at the auction in isolation this is surely a penalty double. However what puzzles me is my !SA. How can LHO have a sensible four card overcall and partner have a penalty pass of 1!S? Surely partner would have bid 1NT with 4 or 5 mediocre spades? I guess LHO may have psyched? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Maybe east (stated as weak) raised with a doubleton. Trumps could be something like A Q9xxx KTxxx Jx around the table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yes this is a penalty double. Apparently RHO has raised on a doubleton (LHO having overcalled on a 4-card suit is not plausible since good players do that only with good 4-card suits). Maybe RHO or LHO missorted his hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Double is for penalties and I am delighted to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Double is for penalties and I am delighted to pass. 4 trumps and a stiff club are pretty good reasons to pass 1♠ and they are not making this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yes this is a penalty double. Apparently RHO has raised on a doubleton (LHO having overcalled on a 4-card suit is not plausible since good players do that only with good 4-card suits). Maybe RHO or LHO missorted his hand. How nice, LHO overcalled with 4 and RHO raised with 2 (or some other weird action similar to this) and our double is penalty because we are prepared and spared a low level double for this ! I don't know if it will be our opponents or US who will win the comedy contest. I am with Zel on the theory side of discussion, but things do not add up much for a negative double here when i look at my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 How nice, LHO overcalled with 4 and RHO raised with 2 (or some other weird action similar to this) and our double is penalty because we are prepared and spared a low level double for this ! I don't know if it will be our opponents or US who will win the comedy contest. I am with Zel on the theory side of discussion, but things do not add up much for a negative double here when i look at my hand. Well when partner has made a penalty pass and they raise it will be great if he can double for penalties. If We had a spade void instead of the Ace I bet everyone would pass in a flash. So if we were to agree that double here is takeout for the minors, this means that we give up the ability to punish them when they raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I remember having a bid argument with a partner about a similar sequence when I held Kx of their suit. Partner had intended it as a light take-out double. My argument was that I had decided to trust partner rather than opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Usually penalty double is my choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Well when partner has made a penalty pass and they raise it will be great if he can double for penalties. If We had a spade void instead of the Ace I bet everyone would pass in a flash. So if we were to agree that double here is takeout for the minors, this means that we give up the ability to punish them when they raise. You won't miss much by not using penalty doubles at 2 level when they bid and raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 throw me in the penalty x camp. P had an impossible 2 nt bid if they wanted to treat their hand as take out (xxxx Kx Qxxxx xx for ex). p knows from the bidding you are short in spades and have at least 4 clubs and the 2n bid is the only way to get diamonds (and a probable fit) into the picture while still leaving 3c as a possible contract. This hand also shows why p could not neg x first time around:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Even though my hand is hardly top notch I pass:))))))))))))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I play this as "do something intelligent", not pure penalty. The only person in my room that overcalls on a 4-bagger (and it'll be KQT9 or better, since they don't have the ace) is me. I know of people who raise on two, but they've trained their partners to be the most honest person on the block. Partner could have Jxxxx and stuff, I guess, but why he would look for penalty at the 1 level on that I can't really set up. We also play "the only pair that plays two-of-a-fit undoubled is us"; I'm expecting that partner would be happy to see me pass, but as this isn't a traditional OBAR BIDS situation, she could be stuck for a call that says "DSI,P, but don't pass". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 We also play "the only pair that plays two-of-a-fit undoubled is us"Does this apply at teams (as OP states this was) as well as pairs? And even if opponents are reasonably honest they could presumably have a 7-card fit, even if they are unlikely to be violating Burns' Law of Total Trumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted January 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Helene_t has the hands dead on: [hv=pc=n&s=sahqj7dj73ca87632&w=sq9642hat5dkt82c4&n=sjt875hk642dq94ck&e=sk3h983da65cqjt95&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c1sp2sppdp3cppp]399|300[/hv] How nice, LHO overcalled with 4 and RHO raised with 2 (or some other weird action similar to this) and our double is penalty because we are prepared and spared a low level double for this ! I don't know if it will be our opponents or US who will win the comedy contest. This makes no sense to me. As it happened E had flipped, but on the diagram above, are you telling me you wouldn't bid 1S on W's hand? Then give E two of my Ss for the KS and a small D for eg, and N's (my) pass looks conservative but sane (if you disagree with can adjust a bit further to subtract a soft side-suit point or two from me), her 2S looks automatic, and my subsequent X still looks marked. Quite aside from that, as someone pointed out, nothing that's happened other than you happening to have an extra trump honour is inconsistent with trumps being 5530 around the table, (or 5431 with P having the SA instead of you), so what's so abnormal about having a penalty double to prepare for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 surprised east didn't X 3♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I don't like passing with the North cards one bit. If partner doubles for takeout and we pass, I guess quite often they will be 1 down and 4♥ would be on, partner has shortness opposite our Jxxxx. If N passed not planning to defend 1♠X North will be stuck to find a bid after partner reopens. 1N is un underbid and 3♥ is ridiculous when partner often has 3. So holding 4♥s and a reasonable hand I think it is obvious for North to double at the first turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 This double is penalty for me, do we even require honours for overcalls now? Partner could be sitting on KQJ9 xxx Axxxx x or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think passing the North hand is ok but I wouldn't pass a reopening doyble then. If south doubles north can show some life with a 3h bid. If 1sp is passed out I would be happy to defend undoubled. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 ... holding 4♥s and a reasonable hand I think it is obvious for North to double at the first turn.I was West at the other table in this teams match, and North did indeed double at his first turn. My partner passed as East (anyone for redouble?), South rebid 2C and that was the end of the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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