1M - 2M is this still a constructive raise by passed hand?

[diana_eva]

Sorry if this has been discussed before - I ran a search and couldn't find what I was looking for.

 

Recently I got into a bit of an argument with a pd I respect who thinks that when playing 2/1, even for passed hand partner, 1M - 1N is semi-forcing while 1M-2M shows a constructive raise (not drury good, but still, a goodish one).

 

The discussion was prompted by this sequence:

[hv=d=n&v=n&b=5&a=ppp1sp2sp3hp3sppp]133|100[/hv]

 

3H was a natural game try (4 hearts or values in hearts). We play drury, so we have a way to show LR for passed hands. However here pd declined my game try thinking that he had already shown a decent raise via 2M.

 

So what are the modern tendencies? Which hands still go via 1NT? What does 1M - 2M show, as opposed to 1M - 1N?

 

I admit I often respond 1NT (NF) with bal 5-6 po and 3 carder fit when my points are not in partner's suit, but I usually give the fit directly when my points are in pd's major or with unbalanced weak hand.

 

Further on this, what hands should opener bother to make a game try with, and what's the min required to blast game?

 

 

 

This was the board in question. Prob not a great game to be into, but still pd insists 2M already told his story and if anyone shd have bid the game that would be me:

[hv=pc=n&http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?w=SAKT32HKJ94DAQCT6&e=SQ54HA8753DT32C72&d=n&v=n&a=PPP1SP2SP3HP3SPPP]399|300[/hv]

 

 

[hrothgar]

1. Even within a 2/1 GF context, the choice to use constructive raises is a question of partnership agreement.

 

Personally, if I had agreed "Constructive raises" and hadn't explicitly discussed auctions over third/fourth seats, I would assume that

 

1NT is forcing (not semi forcing)

Constructive raises still apply

 

2. With all this said and done, I think that my hand revalues significant after most any kind of game try in Hearts. I would probably bid 4S even if 2♠ was constructive.

[Trinidad]

An important advantage of Drury is that you don't need the forcing 1NT anymore. I think it was Mike Lawrence who said that the forcing 1NT in the 2/1 system is like the carburator in your car. It doesn't look pretty, but without it, the system doesn't work.

 

If you are a passed hand, and you play Drury, you can take all the raises out of the 1NT response. Drury shows about 8-12/13 and 1M-2M shows about 4-8. This means that 1NT can now be passed out, without the fear of missing a 5-3 major fit.

 

Given that, responder was clearly worth a raise to 4♥.

 

Rik

[mike777]

Yes I still play constructive raises on by a passed hand.

 

Yes east should bid 4h over 3h but more importantly west should bid 4s over 2s after a const. raise. Keep in mind east could have so much more for 2s here.

 

If east had a tiny bit less I would start with sf 1nt.

 

fwiw I also assume that west in 4th seat shows a very solid opener for 1s.

[diana_eva]

Well our argument was basically that I learned this:

...

If you are a passed hand, and you play Drury, you can take all the raises out of the 1NT response. Drury shows about 8-12/13 and 1M-2M shows about 4-8. This means that 1NT can now be passed out, without the fear of missing a 5-3 major fit.

 

...

 

 

While my pd expected this:

 

....

 

Personally, if I had agreed "Constructive raises" and hadn't explicitly discussed auctions over third/fourth seats, I would assume that

 

1NT is forcing (not semi forcing)

Constructive raises still apply

 

...

 

So it all falls back to "discuss" eh, not much of an expert trend that I wasn't aware of.

[PhilKing]

 

So it all falls back to "discuss" eh, not much of an expert trend that I wasn't aware of.

 

Depends who you consider an expert. B-)

 

FWIW, I don't know anyone who plays Drury AND constructive reasons. Anyway, East has a 4♥ bid even if he has accidentally shown a constructive raise.

[aguahombre]

If we played constructive raises at all (we only play them after a double), we would have been under the impression that a constructive raise shows a good 8-10 support points for the major; and this hand would be questionable as a constructive raise. Opener would know Responder has a hand which would accept a "generic" :rolleyes: game try and she would avoid leakage by just bidding or not bidding game in most cases.

 

Regardless of how I valued my initial 2S raise, I would certainly bid game over 3H. But it would be 4H --fond of playing in 5-5 fits.

[kenrexford]

Drury AND constructive raises makes no sense UNLESS you play "Funny Drury," where the Drury call shows either a limit raise or a nuisance raise.

[inquiry]

I play both ways, with different partners, mentioned in this thread.

 

The original drury convention was used with 10 points or better (counting distribution) and was meant to keep you at the two level when partner opened substandard hands in third position.

 

In one partnership, I play standard American, so no forcing or semi-forcing notrump. Here we use drury for all constructive raises or better (up to limit). Our responses are opener rebids 2Major if he would not accept a limit raise game try. So that effectively ends the auction. He rebids something else if he would accept a limit raise to game, this gets us too high only very rarely when the drury was only a good constructive raise, but it seems to work.

 

In other partnerships where 1NT is semiforcing by passed hand, constructive raises stay constructive, although I don't see why the treatment with constructive raises rolled into drury would not work here as well.

 

But clearly what is needed is AGREEMENT.

[gszes]

IMHO most do not use 1n forcing as a passed hand when playing 2/1 because there are many other

 

tools available to show varying degrees of support for opener major w/o getting overboard. That is completely

 

irrelevant to the discussion of this particular hand however.

 

Even if E felt they had already described the "goodish" hand with their 2s raise their "goodish" hand should be

 

considered a miracle hand with 100% of their values in your 2 long suits and a large 9+ card fit in hearts. This hand

 

should have bid 4h. I would have bid 4h with as little as QJx QJxx xxx xxx and this is by no means a "goodish" 2s raise.

 

 

 

[the_clown]

If you play drury, you would bid 2♣ with good 8/bad 9 + HCP, so I think it doesnt make a lot of sense to play 1♠-2♠ as 7-8.

 

Regardless I think bidding 4♥ is clear, the hand has massively improved after the 3♥ bid.

[jgillispie]

Sorry if this has been discussed before - I ran a search and couldn't find what I was looking for.

 

Recently I got into a bit of an argument with a pd I respect who thinks that when playing 2/1, even for passed hand partner, 1M - 1N is semi-forcing while 1M-2M shows a constructive raise (not drury good, but still, a goodish one).

 

The discussion was prompted by this sequence:

[hv=d=n&v=n&b=5&a=ppp1sp2sp3hp3sppp]133|100[/hv]

 

3H was a natural game try (4 hearts or values in hearts). We play drury, so we have a way to show LR for passed hands. However here pd declined my game try thinking that he had already shown a decent raise via 2M.

 

So what are the modern tendencies? Which hands still go via 1NT? What does 1M - 2M show, as opposed to 1M - 1N?

 

I admit I often respond 1NT (NF) with bal 5-6 po and 3 carder fit when my points are not in partner's suit, but I usually give the fit directly when my points are in pd's major or with unbalanced weak hand.

 

Further on this, what hands should opener bother to make a game try with, and what's the min required to blast game?

 

 

 

This was the board in question. Prob not a great game to be into, but still pd insists 2M already told his story and if anyone shd have bid the game that would be me:

[hv=pc=n&http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?w=SAKT32HKJ94DAQCT6&e=SQ54HA8753DT32C72&d=n&v=n&a=PPP1SP2SP3HP3SPPP]399|300[/hv]

 

 

 

Good book to solve your problems: Passed Hand Bidding by Mike Lawrence

 

I prefer Semi Forcing NT; South African Drury, Ambiguous Mini Splinter (1S-2S ~ 5-7)

[diana_eva]

Good book to solve your problems: Passed Hand Bidding by Mike Lawrence

 

I prefer Semi Forcing NT; South African Drury, Ambiguous Mini Splinter (1S-2S ~ 5-7)

 

Asking is easier than reading :P

[kenberg]

A partner and I are in disagreement about this very issue, I am on the side of, after 3rd/4th seat major openings, playing semi-forcing, rather than forcing, 1NT. We do play Drury, and there I also prefer using only 2♣ as the Drury bid rather than the popular 2-way variant where 2♣ shows 3 card support and 2♦ shows 4 or more. My thinking is that after Pass-1♥-2♣-2♥(shaded opening) then I, the club bidder, plan to pass however many hearts I hold. If partner rebids 2♦, which I have given him room for, then I can clarify my Drury raise a bit. With my 8 point hand I can still get out in 2♥.

 

I mention all of this because several have stated that there is no reason to play constructive raises if you are playing Drury, but it seems to me that this depends on just how Drury is played. If we are going to lower the requirement to an 8 count (as I like) than it seems to me that we should use only 2♣ as asking, else after Pass-1♥-2♦ (if it is Drury with four) opener, with a 14 count, has a tough call. After P-1♥-2♣-2♦(full)-2♥ he can happily pass.

 

PS Playing 4♥ looks pretty good to me. Unless you encounter very bad luck in some unexpected area you are making it of the ♦ K is onside or if hearts are 2-2.

 

PPS: And of course if anyone is bidding any game it is your partner. S/He knows of the double fit, you do not, case closed.

[SteveMoe]

A partner got me playing 2♣ Drury and 2♦ constructive M raise (Instead of 2-way, reverse, fit).

Opener's 2♦ asks trump length. You choice how to show 3 vs 4 card support.

This frees the 2M raise to be a 4-6 HCP 3-card nuisance bid (or a 4-card constructive raise if you prefer).

Drury is good 9 - 11 and the 2♦ constructive raise is 7-bad 9.

[mcphee]

I like constructive raise and do not consider this raise in the group. Facing this raise I bid game because I expect to make it. I also feel there are advantages to playing 1NT semi F especially from passed hand. I think how this auction developed the responder failed miserably as the game try as a chance to look at the hand again, they didnt.

[jallerton]

If you play P-1M-2M as a constructive raise then instead of playing Drury, use P-1M-2♣ and P-1M-2♦ to cover hand types which are awkward for Druryites. For example:

 

P-1M-2♣ shows clubs

P-1M-2♦ shows diamonds.

 

If it is not too much of a memory strain, you can extend this after a 1♠ opener to play:

 

P-1♠-2♥ shows hearts.

[aguahombre]

If you play P-1M-2M as a constructive raise then instead of playing Drury, use P-1M-2♣ and P-1M-2♦ to cover hand types which are awkward for Druryites. For example:

 

P-1M-2♣ shows clubs

P-1M-2♦ shows diamonds.

 

If it is not too much of a memory strain, you can extend this after a 1♠ opener to play:

 

P-1♠-2♥ shows hearts.

It got an upvote for the humor intended; but we would have to redefine "constructive" all the way up to about 12 support points for it to be practical...unless our third-seat openings were never shaded any more so than our regular Major suit openings and we could just use FNT or jump-raise with an invite.

 

Oh, wait -- our 3rd-chair Major openings are the same crap as 1st/2nd, and we already don't use Drury.

[jallerton]

I'm not sure if you were intending to counter the concern you raised or not.

 

By an unpassed hand, there must be a system bid to cope with limit raises (hands which are too strong for a constructive raise but not good enough for a game force, typically good 10-bad12), If playing 2/1 FG, that bid is usually 1NT. If not playing Drury, just do the same thing by a passed hand, remebering of course that (depending on opening bid style) a lot of the limit raise hands might already have opened the bidding.

[MrAce]

I think playing constructive 2M and/or forcing/semi forcing NT by a passed hand is awful.

[Trinidad]

Well our argument was basically that I learned this:

If you are a passed hand, and you play Drury, you can take all the raises out of the 1NT response. Drury shows about 8-12/13 and 1M-2M shows about 4-8. This means that 1NT can now be passed out, without the fear of missing a 5-3 major fit.

While my pd expected this:

Personally, if I had agreed "Constructive raises" and hadn't explicitly discussed auctions over third/fourth seats, I would assume that

 

1NT is forcing (not semi forcing)

Constructive raises still apply

So it all falls back to "discuss" eh, not much of an expert trend that I wasn't aware of.

But the point is that you had explicitly discussed auctions over third/fourth seats:

We play drury

As soon as you agree on that, at least in the "modern tendencies" that you asked for, this means that single raises are only constructive by an unpassed hand. (In the old times Drury showed a maximum pass (~11-12). Modern Drury shows a good raise (~8-12).)

 

Rik

[Mbodell]

My preference is for 1nt semi-forcing, 1-way drury (2♦ instead of 2♣ but there's only 1 partner I play that with), and a raise to 2M as "constructive". My definition of constructive is there exists at least 1 game try I'd accept. I'd want a 8 LTC hand for drury. So for me the constructive raises are the 9 LTC hands that would accept a game try. With the E hand I'd bid P, 2♠, 4♥. Because I'd accept a long suit try in hearts, a short suit try in hearts, and likely a short suit try in diamonds too.

[diana_eva]

 

As soon as you agree on that, at least in the "modern tendencies" that you asked for, this means that single raises are only constructive by an unpassed hand. (In the old times Drury showed a maximum pass (~11-12). Modern Drury shows a good raise (~8-12).)

 

Rik

 

Yes, the problem was we didn't explicitly discuss drury ranges. We open quite light so I assumed we toss all the good 8+ raises in the drury (we probably wd have already opened a good 11 with support in majors). But it was not discussed and I think pd assumed drury is still "I forgot to open" while the 8 point hands go via constructive raises. I also assumed forcing NT was off, while he assumed it was on. We still haven't settled this disagreement FWIW :) I gave in and play his way, trying to open more disciplined and letting him do all the masterminding.

[aguahombre]

I think playing constructive 2M and/or forcing/semi forcing NT by a passed hand is awful.

And merely saying you think something is awful is not particularly constructive, either. I would agree, however, that it is awful for you and for most pairs.

 

For a few of us weirdos it works just fine. Forcing NT responses are (usually) made with hands less than g.f; passed hands are almost less than g.f. across from a Major suit opening. So, the hands on which it occurs are mostly the same hands whether we have actually passed or not.

 

The reason people need Drury and shouldn't use a forcing NT when they are a passed hand have nothing to do with the nature of the responding hand and everything to do with the possible garbage opening bid in 3rd chair which might not even contain 5 pieces in the opened Major. But, what if our opening 1M in 3rd chair has the same floor as our opening 1M in the other positions? (That floor is low enough, already.)

 

Then, your opinion might change to: "Using the same criteria for opening 1M in 3rd position is awful." But, you would see why the awful pairs who do that might as well use forcing NT and not use Drury.

[kenberg]

First chair openings seem to be getting lighter and lighter, presumably making it less necessary/desirable to open light third hand. Still, I like to do it.

 

I would like to hear more about "modern Drury". That is, bidding on 8+. It seems right to me, and I know it is done right or wrong, but there are issues, or so it seems to me. The issues are particularly severe if the Druy bid might be 2♦. I know I already mentioned this but I would like to hear more.

 

So

Kxx / AQxxx / Kx / Qxx

 

Uncontested, dealer passes: Pass-1♠-2♦-?

 

Presumably you do not bid 2♥ but also presumably you could have less and still not want to bid 2♥. I can imagine various ways of sorting this out, my preference is that 2♣ covers all Drury hands, but for those of you who expect partner to bid Drury on an 8 count how do you proceed here?