Reopening double with a void?

[MickyB]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt64hat5dak9532c&w=sa75hk64dckqt7654&n=sj983h98dq87caj92&e=sk2hqj732djt64c83&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1d2cppd3cdppp]399|300|FWIW, double led to -470 at the table.[/hv]

[aguahombre]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt64hat5dak9532c&w=sa75hk64dckqt7654&n=sj983h98dq87caj92&e=sk2hqj732djt64c83&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1d2cppd3cdppp]399|300|FWIW, double led to -470 at the table.[/hv]

 

A non-double followed by two doubles, actually. MickyB worded it properly..."led to -470" is more accurate IMO than a phrasing which implies blame.

[the_clown]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt64hat5dak9532c&w=sa75hk64dckqt7654&n=sj983h98dq87caj92&e=sk2hqj732djt64c83&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1d2cppd3cdppp]399|300|FWIW, double led to -470 at the table.[/hv]

 

I dont think anyone did something wrong, just tough luck.

[wanoff]

Bad luck or possibly a minus for the system.

It's bit easier for those of us playing Acol where north has an easy 2D to start, and later a raise of south's 2S.

[MickyB]

I don't really understand 2D on the North cards, even playing Acol. Seems like a good shot at turning a plus score vs 2C into a minus score vs 2H [or in 3D].

[rhm]

A non-double followed by two doubles, actually. MickyB worded it properly..."led to -470" is more accurate IMO than a phrasing which implies blame.

I dont think anyone did something wrong, just tough luck.

FWIW, I am not surprised.

No blame in the expert department?

Hands with a void in opponent's suit have a high ODR ratio.

Did South expect to get rich against a non vulnerable West, who stuck out his neck by rebidding his clubs again?

Note, that all of North clubs were working overtime (no sure thing) and there was still no way beating the contract.

Give North a fifth club and exchange the ♣3 for the ♦7 between North and East and the contract can still be beaten only by the improbable lead of the ace of trumps.

Granted the diamond distribution was unexpected, but good players just don't bid 3♣ in this position without a good reason.

I agree though that the problem starts with South rebid. You just better warn your partner that a penalty double might not be a good idea.

If a good partner then doubles you can respect his decision. With run of the mill players you are still better off in the long run to take out insurance.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

No blame in the expert department?

Hands with a void in opponent's suit have a high ODR ratio.

Did South expect to get rich against a non vulnerable West, who stuck out his neck by rebidding his clubs again?

I didn't say I would have made the non-double on the first round, the reopening Double on the 2ND, or the final Double. They all led to the table result. If this were an ATB thread, IMO South would take the charge for the reopening Double instead of 2D, but it isn't. The decisions were unsuccessful.

[mike777]

Surprised so many experts feel the first double is so very wrong.

 

 

2c at fav vul could be such a very wide range. I would never guess a 5 loser 7 card suit across his unpassed partner.

[aguahombre]

Surprised so many experts feel the first double is so very wrong.

 

 

2c at fav vul could be such a very wide range. I would never guess a 5 loser 7 card suit across his unpassed partner.

The range gets very much narrower when we factor in (1) Responder who also knows the vulnerability risked a pass when partner might not reopen and (2) advancer didn't advance.

[sfi]

Surprised so many experts feel the first double is so very wrong.

 

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that it is "so very wrong". My reading of other bidders (rather than doublers) is that it is antipercentage because it misleads partner about the nature of your defensive prospects when they want to sit a reopening double. The club void reduces the defence's options considerably while only increasing partner's expected club length a bit. Partner could easily be looking to pass a reopening double on this auction so it needs to be taken into consideration when choosing the action.

 

It's clear that a double can work well - it's the best way to a better major suit partscore for example. But partscore accuracy at IMPs isn't a high priority, and you need to consider what partner might do after your action. Think of the hands partner can have:

 

1. A weakish balanced hand. Here 2D is likely to be the long-term winner since you don't have to worry as much about losing control on the hand. But it probably doesn't matter much what you do.

 

2. A weak unbalanced hand. Double will win here since you'll find a real fit.

 

3. A moderate hand with no previous bid. Double can cause problems for partner who may feel the need to jump to show their strength. That should probably be fine, but still puts you one level higher opposite your moderate hand. Additionally, you don't have a minimum so you might bid again and get too high. These hands can creep up without either partner doing anything clearly wrong. 2D avoids this, and now if partner does move it's clearer that looking for game is a reasonable choice.

 

4. A moderate hand with club values. This is the hand here, where partner doesn't have any great desire to penalise but will willingly cooperate if you express interest in sitting for penalties. In this case the double misrepresents your hand and can lead to -280 (or -470 as here). If partner doubles 3C after your 2D reopening, they are at least forewarned and should have better defence than the given hand.

 

5. A good hand that wants to penalise clubs. Given the vulnerability we will need to take 9 tricks to make up for a game bonus. My offensively oriented hand is going to disappoint partner in this quest, and I would like to send this message. Occasionally I will miss out on +800/1100 and we'll score our normal game contract for a push board.

 

Weighting each option is complex, but the warning about the offensive nature of the hand is one worth sending. After a 2D bid and 3C rebid, now North can evaluate their hand differently and bid 3D for an 11 IMP swing to the good guys. That's not going to happen every time of course, and sometimes you'll lose IMPs whichever action you take.

[mike777]

thanks for your very thoughtful response.

 

I sent this hand out as an email quiz.

[mike777]

to quote one email:

 

 

"Perhaps to answer in a bit more depth: DBL with a void, particularly vul versus not is not so appealing, but here the honors

are defensive enough oriented to make DBL clear anyway."

[MrAce]

I prefer 2♠ as i said in another topic. This means i am bidding 3♣ if no spade fit and i really dislike dbl with void at low levels.

[MickyB]

I kibitzed this hand and instinctively wanted to bid 2♠, not sure if I'd have talked myself into bidding 2♦ at the table though. Glad to see I'm getting some support here! The best player I've asked away from the forums was a 2♦ bidder, and the other six or so [including two world champions] were all doublers.

[Fluffy]

I would double without thinking twice, perhaps I should think more :)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I reopened this hand the other night:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st7654h6dt2cqt954&w=skqj2hjdkqj76c862&n=sa9hak932d98543ca&e=s83hqt8754dackj73&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1d1hppdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

1HX-2 for 8.6 IMPs

[aguahombre]

I reopened this hand the other night:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st7654h6dt2cqt954&w=skqj2hjdkqj76c862&n=sa9hak932d98543ca&e=s83hqt8754dackj73&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1d1hppdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

1HX-2 for 8.6 IMPs

I don't see a void (subject of this thread), and would have expected a reopening double to be nearly unanimous

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I don't see a void (subject of this thread), and would have expected a reopening double to be nearly unanimous

See posts # 5 and # 9 .... ( mikeh and Trinidad ) who seem to "poo poo" the reopening DBL .

[mikeh]

See posts # 5 and # 9 .... ( mikeh and Trinidad ) who seem to "poo poo" the reopening DBL .

I don't understand. I wouldn't dream of pulling a penalty double with the hand you gave. Yes, I'd like an Ace or two...who wouldn't? But I have solid sequences, with relatively short suits and I hold the stiff trump J. Why would I pull and where would I pull it to? As I said in my post at #5, I tend to reopen with something other than double if I would be at least strongly leaning towards a pull of a penalty double.

 

Of course, I will sometimes pass rather than reopen, but I can't imagine doing that with a genuine, tho minimum, opening hand with a stiff in their suit.

 

IOW, if dealt shortness in their suit, I will reopen. Having chosen to reopen, I then look to see whether I have a good reason to not double. Possessing a reopening hand, and lacking a good reason not to double, I double. Where did I suggest otherwise?

[mike777]

I found this a very interesting expert thread thank you for posting it MickeyB.

 

Wanted to share an email conversation regarding this hand from 3 people I sent this around to, everyone started with double after the pass by partner but they thought partner's pass was very wrong:

 

 

"I don't understand partner's actions at all. Was partner really going to sit for 2CX? I think partner should make a negative double of 2c, which would get us to 4S quickly. That may go down, but playing 3CX making is not very good."

--------

 

"I understand partner's actions as both P and double are reasonable (and would be winning actions on a different day).

 

 

 

However, I agree with (Axxx) that DBl of 2C is better (planning to bid 2N over 2H, a slight overbid justified by D fit and good club stoppers) as otherwise can't show moderate values later"

----------

 

"(Cxxx's) response actually raises one of my pet topics/peeves.

 

 

 

I think after making a negative double, responder should be able to bid 2S over 2H with this hand. Otherwise when opener is 4-4 in the majors you are likely to miss your spade fit. I understand a lot of people, probably most, would say that 2S after making a negative double shows a spade one-suiter that was too weak to bid 2S immediately, but in todays world that is a very narrow range of hands as 2S can be bid immediately on, say, Q109xxx AQx xxx x. If you have less than this you cant really afford to commit the partnership to 2S anyway. Yes, 2S immediately is forcing, but in practice the opponents will compete often enough so that if your side does not have a good fit you will not come to any harm. You might get to a shaky 2NT, that no one is going to double. And the chances of negative double, then 2S by responder, followed by three passes, which is what you are presumably hoping for, is pretty remote anyway. Making a negative double with a one-suiter is very dangerous (admittedly less so with spades) because you may never get to show your suit. More dangerous IMO than bidding 2S directly on marginal values."

[aguahombre]

Mike777: you are talking about negative freebids. Most people don't play NFB, which you are certainly welcome to alert and use. But for those who do use NFB, and Neg Double followed by 2S/2H is still more than 4 Spades and forcing as a corollary.

[mike777]

Mike777: you are talking about negative freebids. Most people don't play NFB, which you are certainly welcome to alert and use. But for those who do use NFB, and Neg Double followed by 2S/2H is still more than 4 Spades and forcing as a corollary.

 

 

No they are not in fact talking at all about NFB. You miss the entire point of the last quote. You may disagree with his pet peeve and his suggestion but this has nothing to do with NFB. But yes as he states he is suggesting something that is not standard. He is suggesting bidding a direct 2s on a bit less than standard but it would still be forcing.

 

The other 2 quotes would rebid a slightly overbid of 2nt over 2h rather than the suggested 2s in the third.

 

In any case all three people thought that responder should start with a negative x not pass. I just wanted to throw that out here as a different take on the hand in this thread so far.

[jogs]

Bad luck or possibly a minus for the system.

It's bit easier for those of us playing Acol where north has an easy 2D to start, and later a raise of south's 2S.

 

Don't need to play Acol. The 2♦ is best playing 2/1. North has 4 clubs.

His RHO overcalled 2♣. How many clubs can South have? South surely has

four diamonds and is a favorite to hold five diamonds.

[MickyB]

Don't need to play Acol. The 2♦ is best playing 2/1. North has 4 clubs.

His RHO overcalled 2♣. How many clubs can South have? South surely has

four diamonds and is a favorite to hold five diamonds.

 

Eh? The auction so far, combined with the knowledge of our hand, makes it more likely partner is 4-4-3-2. We have a moderate hand and oppo are playing in our best suit, why rock the boat?

[mike777]

Eh? The auction so far, combined with the knowledge of our hand, makes it more likely partner is 4-4-3-2. We have a moderate hand and oppo are playing in our best suit, why rock the boat?

 

yet they do not make a negative x. In other words I think the north hand is the hand to debate/discuss....not the south hand.

 

every one I give the south doubles and then passes but clearly you have doubts what should be bid.

 

everyone I give the north hand doubles..negative x. but a few say pass is a second option.

 

In any event clearly a deal worth discussing in full, thank you.