ATB - complete bottom

[Cyberyeti]

You would really have opened a vul 3C on this hand? Ye Gods and little fishes!

 

No but he'd have overcalled it.

 

I'm pretty close to it but feel my hand has too much potential elsewhere.

[helene_t]

TBH if you are playing in a weak field I think the 3♣ bid is badly timed. It's the kind of bid I might make if am desperate, not if I expect to win just by playing normal bridge.

[ahydra]

TBH if you are playing in a weak field I think the 3♣ bid is badly timed. It's the kind of bid I might make if am desperate, not if I expect to win just by playing normal bridge.

 

This is a valid point - and really driven home by the fact that we came second by 1 MP (about 0.4%). :/ (But having said that, our opps on this board were the second or third strongest in the room so probably would have bid 1H-3S or 1H-4H leaving partner in the same situation and bringing the same result. My guess is that the weaker Easts raised only to 3H.)

 

Following the feedback in this thread I think it's time to e-mail partner about his expectations of pre-empts so we're definitely on the same wavelength. I'll try not to mention the blunder he made on another board which cost us first place :P

 

ahydra

[mikeh]

This is a valid point - and really driven home by the fact that we came second by 1 MP (about 0.4%). :/ (But having said that, our opps on this board were the second or third strongest in the room so probably would have bid 1H-3S or 1H-4H leaving partner in the same situation and bringing the same result. My guess is that the weaker Easts raised only to 3H.)

 

Following the feedback in this thread I think it's time to e-mail partner about his expectations of pre-empts so we're definitely on the same wavelength. I'll try not to mention the blunder he made on another board which cost us first place :P

 

ahydra

I don't understand how anyone could think that the auction (1♥) 3♣ (4♥) creates the same situation for someone holding AKxxxxx Qx xxxx void as does the auction (1♥) P (4♥).

 

Only a solitaire player ignores partner's actions.

 

In the former, we pass, expecting our vulnerable partner to hold clubs and not much on the side. In the latter, we bid 4♠ as a legitimate 2 way shot.

[ahydra]

I don't understand how anyone could think that the auction (1♥) 3♣ (4♥) creates the same situation for someone holding AKxxxxx Qx xxxx void as does the auction (1♥) P (4♥).

 

Only a solitaire player ignores partner's actions.

 

In the former, we pass, expecting our vulnerable partner to hold clubs and not much on the side. In the latter, we bid 4♠ as a legitimate 2 way shot.

 

I can see the point about the clubs. But after (1H)-p-(4H), you would really bid 4S even at this vul, at MPs - risking -500 even opposite a reasonable collection such as xx xx QJx AQxxxx? (IMPs is a different matter, since -500 vs -420 is pennies while the gains from -200 vs -420 and +620 vs -420 make this a no-brainer)

 

ahydra

[mikeh]

I can see the point about the clubs. But after (1H)-p-(4H), you would really bid 4S even at this vul, at MPs - risking -500 even opposite a reasonable collection such as xx xx QJx AQxxxx? (IMPs is a different matter, since -500 vs -420 is pennies while the gains from -200 vs -420 and +620 vs -420 make this a no-brainer)

 

ahydra

If my opps played a standard sort of method, I would definitely bid 4♠ over a 4♥ raise even in a weak field at mps. Yes, we may go for 500, or more, but how can one pass?

 

We lose when they can double and beat us 500 or more.....however, our 7 card suit and rho's pre-empt at least make it unlikely that anyone is doubling on trumps. They are more than welcome to double on club values :D

 

We lose when we go down at all and they weren't making. However, unless partner leads a club, we have a death holding (for defence) in hearts and our spades are too long to expect more than one trick. Thus even with a club lead, which may mean we are ruffing a slow winner for partner anyway, we need partner to take 2 defensive tricks to get a plus our way.

 

Meanwhile, if we make, we win, doubled or not. If we fail by one trick and they make, we win, doubled or not. if we fail by as many as 4 tricks undoubled, we win (tho in real life the best we can hope for is down 2 undoubled and down 1 is more realistic when they don't double). And if they take the push to 5 hearts, we are never worse that passing and often better (even tho we may have cost ourselves the club ruff....maybe we weren't getting it and maybe it comes back in the suit anyway).

 

Remember: the opps almost never lead trump on these auctions, and many times partner will have a stiff heart and 2 or more spades...most opps will have 10+ trump between them to pre-empt to the 4 level.

 

Meanwhile, our club void may end up golden, when they double thinking that they have club tricks.

 

Positing hands for partner is foolish unless you do it by way of a carefully designed simulation, since very few of us can resist the unconscious tendency to select hands that accord with our existing view.

 

For example, imagine Qxx x KQxx xxxxxx. Why not? Isn't that entirely consistent with the auction?

 

Now we probably make an overtrick :P And LHO, looking at Jx Axxxx AJx AKx doubles and his partner with x KJxxx xx QJxxx has no reason to pull.

 

Btw, another tendency many of us have, when deciding not to bid due to the risk involved, is to assume, consciously or otherwise, that the opps will go right every time we give them a problem in the auction. The reality is that even the best opps will go wrong some of the time.

 

When I learned to play bridge, the best experts in my part of the world stressed the importance of not going for numbers: in essence, of not making mistakes. That was a long time ago and for the past 30 years or so there has been an emphasis on looking instead at trying to cause the opps to make mistakes: and that is accomplished by pressure bridge. Passing 4♥ is an attempt to avoid disaster.....bidding 4♠ is an attempt to score big. The history of top-flight bridge over the past 30+ years reveals that the aggressive stance is the better.

 

Btw, the considerations change opposite a strong club pair, since RHO could be a balanced 4432 type of hand, with 12-14 hcp, rather than the assumed preemptive hand one expects in standard bidding.

[jgillispie]

3♣ shows an allergy to the Pass card.

 

Anyone who chooses 3♣ is playing solitaire, not a partnership game.

 

Agree. N hand is too strong for a preempt. Good ruffing value and support for outside suits. 2C is enough, and it implies more tolerance for spades than 3C.

[mikeh]

Agree. N hand is too strong for a preempt. Good ruffing value and support for outside suits. 2C is enough, and it implies more tolerance for spades than 3C.

Disagree....strongly. I wouldn't play with a partner who thought N should do anything other than pass. Red v white 2-level overcalls are not made with Aceless 8 counts.

[the hog]

I don't understand how anyone could think that the auction (1♥) 3♣ (4♥) creates the same situation for someone holding AKxxxxx Qx xxxx void as does the auction (1♥) P (4♥).

 

Only a solitaire player ignores partner's actions.

 

In the former, we pass, expecting our vulnerable partner to hold clubs and not much on the side. In the latter, we bid 4♠ as a legitimate 2 way shot.

 

Neither do I. 4S is an obvious bid over 4H.