ATB - complete bottom

[ahydra]

MPs, weakish field, NS vul

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak9xxxxhqxdtxxxc&n=stxxhdkq9xcqjtxxx&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1h3c(PRE)4hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

With a friendly lie in both black suits 6S can be made, though we'd have settled for 4S+2 rather than the complete bottom we got for 4H=.

 

ahydra

[louisg]

You are joking, right? If South bids 4♠ he deserves to find partner with x xxx xx AQJTxxx and go -1100 (if trumps split).

[ggwhiz]

Ouch!

 

I know the North hand can play well in 3 suits but cries for action and at these colors I can't think of anything else that makes sense.

 

I blame west if the 1♥ opener was shaded or give the field a drug test. Looks like a super fix.

[the_clown]

100% North. I dont like 3♣ with a 6 card suit at unfavourable, especially when you have support for all 3 suits. As others mentioned, South has an obvious pass.

[mikeh]

3♣ shows an allergy to the Pass card.

 

Anyone who chooses 3♣ is playing solitaire, not a partnership game.

[chasetb]

100% North, no doubt about it.

 

I dislike the pre-emptive agreement when Vul, you are asking to go for a number on hands when opponents can't make much.

[ggwhiz]

100% North, no doubt about it.

 

So 1♥ - p - 4♥ - ?

 

Perhaps not but if they do anything that requires south to come in at the 3 level (and it appears that they will), I'm doomed.

[louisg]

So 1♥ - p - 4♥ - ?

 

Perhaps not but if they do anything that requires south to come in at the 3 level (and it appears that they will), I'm doomed.

 

Why? It's much more comfortable to overcall 3♠ when partner hasn't announced that his hand is all clubs than it is to overcall 4♠ when he has. Even if it does go 1♥ - p - 4♥ (and it probably won't), a 4♠ bid has a much better chance of success than it does on the actual auction.

[mikeh]

So 1♥ - p - 4♥ - ?

 

Perhaps not but if they do anything that requires south to come in at the 3 level (and it appears that they will), I'm doomed.

After rho bounces to 4♥, I think almost all good imp players would bid 4♠. In fact, it is easier to bid 4♠ over 4♥ than 3♠ over 3♥. The payoff is bigger for the game bid, and the odds of catching partner with a stiff heart are far greater after 4♥ than 3.

 

Yes, we can all see that disaster may be lying in wait, but we have AKxxxxx with shape on the side.

 

As it was, partner's 3♣ took us right out of the auction.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't object to agreeing to bid 3♣ on the N hand, and on this hand you fix partner but it can gain big, but I wouldn't do it unless I'd had the discussion.

[the hog]

South is totally to blame for agreeing to play opposite Nth. I say opposite rather than with, because North took a total self indulgent fight of fancy.

[neilkaz]

Like most others, I don't care for the 3♣ bid with too much potential for the other 3 suits. N should expect his partner to be in a fix after the opps bid 4♥. If N just passes, partner hopefully will take the good shot of trying 4♠.

 

Sometimes when you "operate" like N did here, things work out, but here they didn't and N has to be ready with the apologies.

[wank]

typical british undisciplined pre-empting style

[ggwhiz]

After rho bounces to 4♥, I think almost all good imp players would bid 4♠.

 

I agree 100%. But it's mp's in a weak field.

[Bbradley62]

But it's mp's in a weak field.

Then North/South should be striving to be in the normal contract and make one trick more than everyone else, not swing by making preempts that don't get duplicated by the field.

[mikeh]

I agree 100%. But it's mp's in a weak field.

still have to do it....it's just too dangerous to pass with the S hand...but, as if often the case, I didn't pay as much attention to the OP as I should have:)

[ahydra]

Interesting replies here. Full hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak97654hq5dt862c&w=sqjhkjt832da5ck93&n=st82hdkq97cqjt752&e=s3ha9764dj43ca864&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1h3c(PRE)4hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I was North :/ We play our pre-empts here as solid, bordering on constructive so I thought 3C was fine. I can see the point though, that it's only going to pay off if partner has a good club fit and shape, because with a suit of his own he's not going to bid at this vul. So I'm guessing the correct hand to pre-empt with here is something like the one in louisg's first post - 100% single-suited.

 

Frequencies were all over the place - I'm guessing more than a few Easts did not go straight to 4H or 3S SPL on the first round:

 

4H+1 (so it wasn't a complete bottom after all!)

4H=

5H-1

4S+1

4S+2

5SX+1

4SX+2

 

ahydra

[wank]

qjtxxx is not 'solid bordering on the constructive' red at the 3 level

[cherdano]

I don't object to agreeing to bid 3♣ on the N hand, and on this hand you fix partner but it can gain big, but I wouldn't do it unless I'd had the discussion.

But it's just a terrible agreement! You are red/white, they have already found their fit, you may prevent your side from finding yours, and you aren't stealing much space either. Really your bid only pays off if you magically find partner with a raise to 5♣ and they do the wrong thing over that. Or perhaps if they have to stretch to one level higher in hearts (3 instead 2, or 4 instead 3) and partner can double them. That's a thin target, the big shuffler doesn't aim well enough for that.

[Cyberyeti]

But it's just a terrible agreement! You are red/white, they have already found their fit, you may prevent your side from finding yours, and you aren't stealing much space either. Really your bid only pays off if you magically find partner with a raise to 5♣ and they do the wrong thing over that. Or perhaps if they have to stretch to one level higher in hearts (3 instead 2, or 4 instead 3) and partner can double them. That's a thin target, the big shuffler doesn't aim well enough for that.

 

It's not so much the agreement to do it on this specific hand, it's an agreement to make undisciplined preempts. One of the major chances of gain is where opps have the spades as well (and would have responded 1♠) and they just blast on in hearts without finding the spade fit now, and underbid.

 

IIRC Ahydra is in the UK so 1♥ could easily be a 44(32), preempting against that can be good. It can be very good if responder is 54?? and they now play in the 4-4 with a 5-0 break.

 

There is plenty of chance of gain, but also a big chance of fixing your partner, I'm fairly undisciplined in my preempts, but at this vul, this one just feels wrong.

[ahydra]

qjtxxx is not 'solid bordering on the constructive' red at the 3 level

 

It's not a bad suit, and the hand has great shape - decent second suit, heart void. But I guess the problem is that you can never show the diamonds. My opponent at the table suggested UNT'ing instead but partner and I agreed this is not a good idea due to the risk of playing in the wrong suit when partner is 3=2 in the minors.

 

ahydra

[wank]

My opponent at the table suggested UNT'ing instead but partner and I agreed this is not a good idea

 

 

 

wise indeed

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

at those colors the North hand is not strong enough for 3C,

just a 6 card suit, less than 50% of the points in the long suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

I am glad this hand happened to you and not to me, because I would had duplicated your actions.

[the hog]

You would really have opened a vul 3C on this hand? Ye Gods and little fishes!