PhilKing Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 How about this hand from a club game.[hv=pc=n&s=s532hkq652d7542c7&w=sakj4haj93dtckt95&n=st986h74dkj98ca82&e=sq7ht8daq63cqj643&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2d(Lee%202D)p2h(%5Bsee%20note%201%5D)p2n(Big%204-4-4-1%20hand)p3n(%5Bsee%20note%202%5D)p4c(Which%20minor%20is%20your%20longer%20suit)p4h(%5Bsee%20note%203%5D)p4s(RKCB%20for%20Clubs)p4n(%5Bsee%20note%204%5D)p6cpp(%5Bsee%20note%205%5D)p]399|300[/hv]Notes on the bidding:1. Oh no, my partner has opened 2♦ again. This is unlikely to end well. 2. I can't remember what to do, optherwise I would relay with 3♣. Anyway, I have a few points, so hopefully 3NT will roll home. West, with exactly the same hand he showed on the previous round, continues in the hope that his partner has some extra values. 3. I have no idea what is going on, perhaps this is Gerber? I will show one ace and see what happens. 4. This is turning into a nightmare. I think we play sliding Gerber, so I will deny a king. 5. I should probably bid Seven now, but we have had too many disasters with this convention. Let's take the sure plus for once. I spoke to East and this is what really happened (see above). :unsure: 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Don't lose sight of the fact that the 2♦ bid can include 4 possible hand patterns.I am not - the suggestion comes after 2NT, which is always a strong 3-suiter. What I am saying is that instead of 3♣ negative and others positive you would be better served making 3♣ your positive and other bids negative. Many pairs playing this form of 3-suited 2NT rebid have the possibility of showing weakness earlier too but that is unavailable in your system. In my system I can not only show a bust before Opener's rebid but also switch down to the rebid being 2♦ in this case, allowing for an escae in 2M sometimes. It is also the case that my lower end for showing a 3-suited is higher so Responder has an even easier time advancing. In fact my auction on this hand begins 1♣ - 1♠; 3♣, where Opener has shown 15-17hcp and precisely 4414 shape while Responder has denied a 4 card major and established a GF. Having shown the hand it is up to East to decide what to do next and would be a breach of partnership trust for West to take another bite of the cherry if there was a sign off in 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I think West deserves to catch East with xxx xxx AKQ xxxx where on a bad day where you might struggle to make 3C, let alone 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 What I am saying is that instead of 3♣ negative and others positive you would be better served making 3♣ your positive and other bids negative.I am going to adopt this suggestion of yours, reversing my 3♣ and 3♦ meanings. Doing that the auction will change as follows: [hv=pc=n&s=s532hkq652d7542c7&w=sakj4haj93dtckt95&n=st986h74dkj98ca82&e=sq7ht8daq63cqj643&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2d(Lee%202D)p2h(Majors%20equal%20length)p2n(Big%204-4-4-1%20hand)p3c(Positive%2C%20show%20shortness)p3d(Diamond%20shortness)p4c(Suit%2C%20slam%20interest)p4d(Redwood%20for%20clubs)p4h(1%20keycard)p4s(Do%20you%20have%20Club%20queen%3F)p6c(Yes)ppp]399|300[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Do you consider my post above flaming? I would be somewhat disappointed with myself if it came across that way. :unsure: Not really. :) I just remember a lot of long and pointless arguments about conventions that were clearly absurd. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 How about this hand?17/18 played in 4♠1/18 played in 5♣[hv=pc=n&s=sqt9hkq5dak763cqj&w=sj83hj764d4c97653&n=sak76542ht92dt5ct&e=sha83dqj982cak842&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=2d(Lee%202D)2n(Natural)p4h(Texas)5cppp]399|300[/hv]Finding out that the 5♣ bid after the 2♦ opening showed a minimum of 14 HCP, South was hesitant to bid on. As the cards lie, 5♠ makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 See Zel, that's trolling. You still have a way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Finding out that the 5♣ bid after the 2♦ opening showed a minimum of 14 HCP, South was hesitant to bid on. As the cards lie, 5♠ makes. I had my doubts about this convention, but amazing results like this makes me reconsider. This is the greatest advance in bidding theory since spiral transfer Gerber over raptor 1NT overcalls IMHO. And you can quote me on this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 How about this hand?17/18 played in 4♠1/18 played in 5♣[hv=pc=n&s=sqt9hkq5dak763cqj&w=sj83hj764d4c97653&n=sak76542ht92dt5ct&e=sha83dqj982cak842&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=2d(Lee%202D)2n(Natural)p4h(Texas)5cppp]399|300[/hv]Finding out that the 5♣ bid after the 2♦ opening showed a minimum of 14 HCP, South was hesitant to bid on. As the cards lie, 5♠ makes.4NT is a much better bid than 5 clubs anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 In which club are you playing and why haven't they taken their medicine that night? East passed over 4S 17 times? Alternatively, if east managed to introduce diamonds and clubs at some point, west failed to bid 5C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Maybe the problem is that they have taken their medicine, but they have smoked it in a little pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 The convention seems to be notoriously unsound, both on theoretical and practical grounds (as the final contract shows). 2C as the Lee opener would be fine, of course. 2D puts opps to a guess, but they only have to guess sometimes. Opener side, on the other hand, ALWAYS has to make some guess. As to the play, there's sooooo many hcps possibilities for LHO that I would think it's a far cry NOT to finesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Suggest a defence to this hand:[hv=pc=n&w=s4hqdaqjt943ca864&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2d(Lee%202D)]133|200[/hv]The opening bid promises one of the following hand patterns - 1. A natural weak 2 in diamonds, 6-11 HCP2. 6-4 in the majors, 10-15 HCP3. A big 4441 hand, 16+ HCP4. A big 5-5 hand in the minors, 14+ HCP West knows that South has opened one of the three strong hand patterns. But the West hand does not form part of your defensive agreements, which are these:1. Double is for takeout of a natural weak-two in diamonds2. Any new suit is natural and at least a 5-card suit3. 2NT is natural, 15-17 HCP4. 3♦ is Michaels, 5-5 in the majors What would you suggest from West?1. Gambling 3NT? This would probably need to be played from East's side of the table. What bidding sequence would get you there?2. A jump to 4♦ to jam the auction?3. A jump to 5♦ as an advance sacrifice?4. Something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 With the agreements given, I would just pass, but I think it is crazy for 3D to be michaels there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 3D Natural. What's the problem? Why would you want 3D to be 5/5 Ms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 With the agreements given, I would just pass, but I think it is crazy for 3D to be michaels there.3D Natural. What's the problem? Why would you want 3D to be 5/5 Ms?The problem is really quite simple. 75% of the time that the bidding gets opened with 2♦, opener will be holding a natural weak-two in diamonds. Can someone kindly run a SIM for us on these probabilities:1. Given that opener has opened a 6-card diamond suit, what is the probability that the player in the direct seat is holding the remaining 7-cards in the diamond suit? The probability has got to be really small.2. Given that opener has opened a 6 or a 7-card diamond suit, what is the probability that the player in the direct seat is holding 5+/5+ cards in the majors? Logic tells me that the probability is much higher, although I have no idea what the actual number is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I really should not get involved in these discussions but.... "The problem is really quite simple. 75% of the time that the bidding gets with 2♦, opener will be holding a natural weak-two in diamonds." So what? "Given that opener has opened a 6 or a 7-card diamond suit, what is the probability that the player in the direct seat is holding 5+/5+ cards in the majors?" Not that high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 How about this hand from a club game:[hv=pc=n&s=sj64hqj87532d53c2&w=skq2ht6da874cq986&n=sa98753hk94dj2ck3&e=sthadkqt96cajt754&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=2d(Lee%202D)p2s(Longest%20major)p(That%20was%20my%20bid%21%21%21)3c(Big%205/5%20minors)p4d(Values%20+%20preference)p4h(Redwood%20for%20diamonds)p4s(1%20keycard)d6dppdppp]399|300[/hv]South dutifully led a ♠ after the double, the only trick for the defence. When North doubled the final contract, the club finesse was earmarked to go through him.2/15 tables got to slam, one in 6♣ and one in 6♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 More guessing.... Make West's ♣Q into the ♥K (keeping the same shape) and you are in a hopeless contract, but I don't see how the bidding would be any different. North's second double is terrible. I don't really like his first either. edit: Also, it looks like your opening lacks any way for responder to show club preference with values. Maybe you play 4H for it, but it all gets very messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Also, it looks like your opening lacks any way for responder to show club preference with values. Maybe you play 4H for it, but it all gets very messy.No, its really quite simple: 1. With club preference without values, the 3♣ bid simply gets passed.2. With club preference and values, 3♣ gets raised to 4♣.3. With diamond preference without values, 3♣ gets corrected to 3♦ as a signoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 So it is not 14+ HCP after all, but 14-17 or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Indeed, it sure sounded like a 3C bid could have been AK x AKJxx AKJxx and other similar hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32519 Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 If you really want to nit-pick, then make it 14-21 HCP. 22+ HCP will probably go through the 2♣ bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Well, it's not a nitpick, it's just trying to understand whether your bids are forcing and what exactly you mean by 'values.' So what you mean is that you can pass 3♣ with something like Jxx xxx xxx Qxxx. With any hand that is stronger than that, responder is defined to have values. If so, did opener really have enough to force to slam? It seems like he would have bid 4♦ already with xxx xx Axxx xxxx, and with that hand slam is 0%. I repeat: slam is 0%, no slam is 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 14-21 is a huge, practically unplayable range at the 3 level. How do you bid xKxKQJxxKQJxx opposite KQJxxxxxxxxxx and many other worse fitting hands? If you are finishing in 3♣ then change Opener's hand to xxx-AKQJxAKQJx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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