pbleighton Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Looking at defenses to 1NT, the responses seem to fall into 3 categories:1) Penalty double2) 6 card suits (or a great 5)3) hands with two 4 card suits Against a weak NT, it seems to me that something is missing - decent, but not great, 5 card majors. Game is not out of the question vs a weak NT, but it is almost certainly in a major, if it exists. Posters in other threads have made the point that the weak NT is rarely doubled successfully for penalties. So use double to show 6 card suits, as in DONT. Then:2C shows clubs and another2D shows hearts and spades2H/2S shows a decent 5 card suit or better, and better values than normal in NT interference (perhaps 14+ hcp). I doubt that this particular scheme will work, but how do people think about a more constructive approach to overcalling a weak NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 I played this against weak NT for some time: Dbl: Balanced 13+ or one suited with 16+2c: Transfer to d's 12-15 or Hearts and another suit 12-15 or d+other 16+2d: Transfer to h's 12-15 or two suited with h 16+2h: Transfer to s's 12-15 or two suited with s 16+2s: Spades and another suit 12-152n: Freakish distributional hand3x: Preempts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 There are a number of schemes over a NT. One fairly unknown one, (in US), is SOAP - system over artificial pre emption2C = H, resp bids 2D with no fit and 4S2D = S resp bids 2H with no fit and 4+H2H/S = 4 cards in that suit and a longer m2NT = 5/5 msx = pens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ron - "There are a number of schemes over a NT. One fairly unknown one, (in US), is SOAP - system over artificial pre emption2C = H, resp bids 2D with no fit and 4S2D = S resp bids 2H with no fit and 4S2H/S = 4 cards in that suit and a longer m2NT = 5/5 msx = pens" What suit length does 2C/2D promise? What is the minimum normal hcp for these bids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Depends on the vulnerability, Peter. In general 2C/D show the same M suit length/strength as a normal 2H/S overcall. eg over a weak Nt nv I'd bid 2C onand that would be my bare minimumxxKQTxxxAJxxx Other quite nice defences are: Asptro2C = H + ?2D = S + ?2H/S = s/suitersWith both Majors, you anchor into the weaker M LionelHrothgar has posted a description of this somewhere. I've played all of these against weak and strong NTs. Which one you prefer is largely a matter of personal preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallway Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hi Peter, We just play a very BASIC ACOL and only ever bid a 1NT opener as a WEAK 12-14 Balanced. It has been suggested that when defending against such a 1NT Opener we could use the 'Hamilton Convention" of 10 -14 2 C = single suit 6+ 2 D = both Majors 5 + 2 H = 5H and a minor 2 S = 5S and a minor 2NT = both minors 15 (pref) 16 + Double = Penalties It would be interesting to hear what others think of this method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hamilton has on MAJOR flaw.Over (1NT) 2C if third hand bids, your fit may be lost forever. eg if you have a H suit and opener's pd bids 2S, you could be missing a really nice H partial simply because pd of the 2C bidder does not know what suit overcaller has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hi Ron, Hamilton/Capeletti/Crowhurst has some flaws, but not the one you mentioned.If the bidding started with 1 NT (2 CLub) 2 any, but can double for take out, knowing, that you have a long major. The defects are:If you bid 2 Diamond with unequal length, pd with equal length has a problem.You can solve this, if you revers the meaning of 2 Club and 2 Diamond. Then pd can bid 2 Diamonds to let you decide. With M/m two suiters you have to play at the 3. level in about 50% of the time, which may be just one level too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 If the bidding started with 1 NT (2 CLub) 2 any, but can double for take out, knowing, that you have a long major Huh? The bidding (1NT) 2C (2S) You holdxxxKxxxJxAxxx If pd has H or C you want to raise to the 3 level; if he has D as is likely, you don't want to bid. Which has he got? The 2C bid shows ANY s/suiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hi Ron, Okay I got it, sorry I am so used to play 2 Club to show one MAJOR, that I did not get your point. And UR right, if 2 Club shows one suit, you sometimes have a problem. Kind Regards Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgek Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 I play dbl= 6crd minor or both majors 11-16 or 17 +2m= 4+ crd + another 11-16 if 5m-4M upper range2M= natural 5+crd 11-16 resp to dbl:2C= nf relay2D= no pref for M, no fit correct with C2M= pref no fit correct with minor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badderzboy Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 I'm very keen for the guidance so far on this thread and my partner and I are considering ASTPRO. One maybe silly question for the experts is there any reason not to steal transfers and use say Puppet Stayman for the defence as it should find all 5/3 or 4/4 fits in one level, ie. 2C asks partner for 5 Card Major and responses as for puppet... (say 11-15 range) , pass <10ptsand use DBL for 16+ Partner could then use Puppet in reponse...Transfers for remainder with 11-15 and 5 Card major by bidder.If opps bid trfr themselves then DBL shows bid suit and 5Cards in bid suit... I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it and it must have some major flaws... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 I'm very keen for the guidance so far on this thread and my partner and I are considering ASTPRO. One maybe silly question for the experts is there any reason not to steal transfers and use say Puppet Stayman for the defence as it should find all 5/3 or 4/4 fits in one level, ie. 2C asks partner for 5 Card Major and responses as for puppet... (say 11-15 range) , pass <10ptsand use DBL for 16+ Partner could then use Puppet in reponse...Transfers for remainder with 11-15 and 5 Card major by bidder.If opps bid trfr themselves then DBL shows bid suit and 5Cards in bid suit... I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it and it must have some major flaws... Steve Multiple points: #1 Transfers in competition don't place enough pressure on the opponents. #2 Puppet Stayman can have serious repercussions with a misfit. You are going to be forced too high on many hands. #3 Stayman and Puppet Stayman are designed to identify major suit fits, since this is a critical goal in constructive bidding. When competing over a NT opening, your goal is to jam the opponents auction. It doesn't matter where you declare a major or a minor, so-long as you (A) Are displacing them out of NT(B) Land in a relatively safe contract I'm very partial to "extended" Lionel X = Spades and another suit2C = Clubs and Hearts2D = Diamonds and Hearts2H = Hearts2S = Spades2NT = Constructive 2 suiter (promises Clubs)3C = Both minors, preemptive3D = Constructive with Diamonds and a Major3H = Constructive with both Majors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cave_Draco Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Astro has always worked for me; Asptro is an "amusing" modification, ;D. One BIG problem with respect to defences to the Weak NT is the "System On" option. How will the NT side take your interference? 1NT-X-p-p-XX... HELP!1NT-X-XX-p-?... ;D, they are in trouble P!.1NT-2C-X... Stayman.1NT-2C-p... wait & see.1NT-2D-?... Normally, System Off. If the 2C overcall shows Hearts? Another, I think natural, corollary to the Weak NT is Inverted Minors; since 1m promises length or strength... Any defences to Inverted Minors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 I'm very partial to "extended" Lionel X = Spades and another suit2C = Clubs and Hearts2D = Diamonds and Hearts2H = Hearts2S = Spades2NT = Constructive 2 suiter (promises Clubs)3C = Both minors, preemptive3D = Constructive with Diamonds and a Major3H = Constructive with both Majors I think that this is a fine defence against a strong NT, but against a weak NT I think it is important to retain a penalty double. The other difference against a weak NT is that game is still a viable option, so your defence must have more constructive follow ups than are needed against a strong NT. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Paul writes:"The other difference against a weak NT is that game is still a viable option, so your defence must have more constructive follow ups than are needed against a strong NT." Would you give me an example of what has been in your experience a more constructive approach? Not just the bids, but the strength requirements vs a strong NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Paul writes:"The other difference against a weak NT is that game is still a viable option, so your defence must have more constructive follow ups than are needed against a strong NT." Would you give me an example of what has been in your experience a more constructive approach? Not just the bids, but the strength requirements vs a strong NT. Against a weak NT, it's worth investing the time to have some constructive sequences after a two-suited overcall. For example, after an Asptro 2C showing hearts + another, 3C is typically used as a game-try. Over a weak NT, you should be slightly stronger to compete in the direct position, safe in the knowledge that partner will compete with poor hands in 4th. Against a strong NT, this is sort of reversed. It is rare that you will bid game so you can compete with weaker distributional hands in both positions - partner will not go overboard given there is a 15-17 NT around. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 27, 2003 Report Share Posted June 27, 2003 Against a strong NT, this is sort of reversed. It is rare that you will bid game so you can compete with weaker distributional hands in both positions - partner will not go overboard given there is a 15-17 NT around. Fully agree and I'd like to suggest that you should keep the 2NT bid as a powerful two suiter when they open 1NT, my idea is that most chances to win a game after they open 1NT come from two-suited hands. And you don't want your pd to pass your 2x bid. Summarizing you should have at least ONE forcing bid to use if they open 1NT just in case. That's why I like "TDONT" (Twisted DONT) A treatment I recommend to DONT players:dbl: one suited hand2c: c+other2d: d+M2h: h+s2s: Some preempt at the 3 level2n: Powerful 2 suited hand3c: Both Minors (5-5) weakish3d: Diammonds and a major (5-5) weakish3h: Majors (5-5) weakish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 against weak NT (ie Acol 12-14) we play Cappelletti - with 4/4 suits ONLY if NON VUL). Seems to work ok for us :) SO X shows 15+ 2C = single suiter ( at LEAST 6 carder)2D= majors2H + H + minor2S = S + minor2NT = minors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irdoz Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 I've played Astro and Asptro and certainly prefer them to CAPP and DONT which both have flaws. I've recently being experimenting with Woolsey (it might have another name) - it caters for more hand types and doesnt have some of the problems of DONT and CAPP. Its basic structure is... dbl = 4M/5m opening hand+ or a good diamond one suiter (Resp Pass convert to penalty, 2c asks minor; 2d asks major, 2M to play) (Can also include very strong hands in dbl in which case 2nt over any response shows this hand) 2c = 54 in majors (Resp 2d asks longer major) 2d = one suiter in major or strong major/minor hand (Resp 2s = spades; 2h = pass or correct) (If overcaller continues with 2nt shows strong hand) 2M = 5/5 major minor (Resp 2nt ask minor) 2nt = minors 3m = 6+ cards preempt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 against strong NT, I use DONT, but against weak NT we only use DONT when we allready passed (4th hand 1NT-opening). Normally we use multi-landy: Dbl = opening value, any hand2C = 44+ M (V -7LTC, NV -8LTC)2D = multi: weak-2M or semi-gameforcing in any suit (V -7LTC, NV -8LTC)2M = muiderberg (5 card M and 4+ in a minor) (V -7LTC, NV -8LTC)2NT = 55+m3X = pre-emptive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 I play over any opps NT bid ( opening mini/weak/strong, response 1NT, fit jump 2NT... ) same structure. If some of suits are already shown by opps, then bid in this suit show wild 2 suiter and other bids cant include it. DBL: overcall in minor or both majors 2CL: DONT 2DI: DONT 2HE/SP: nat, 5+ 2NT: both minors Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 A different twist on the Don't/Cappaletti style is Beware (against weak NT)X = 9-14 two suiter or 18+ flatsuit = natural.2NT = Good overcall say 13-163-any = weak Using double to show a two suiter is more frequent than double to show a single suiter hence advancer gets to pass a lot. If opponents are Vuls vs Not then we play double as straight penalty and play 2C=majors. After a double the first double by either partner is takeout, others=penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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