4th suit forcing continuation

[WGF_Flame]

Hi,

 

1♣ - 1♥

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 2♠

 

We had a discussion of the meaning of this 2♠

Does it show 4 spades and is mainly slam invitation, or it shows 3 spades and is mainly looking to find the best game, checking for dimaond stopper etc.

 

What do you think ?

[aguahombre]

If the 1S rebid was already unbalanced -- the camp which would rebid 1NT or 2NT with 4-3-2-4 or 4-3-3-3, then a probe for Diamond stop is not really practical, since Opener is stiff or void there. That camp will have to decide what 2S means for them.

 

I am the other persuasion, and wouldn't even be guaranteeing 3-card spade support..definitely a probe for diamond controls; could be slammish. Our continuations from this point would be shape-defining by opener. 2N=one of the balanced hands with diamond stop; 3n=possible since Opener could still be balanced with 18-19; 3D=balanced without diamond stop.

[kenrexford]

I thought this would be a non problem unanimously. Obviously wrong.

 

For me, this is the auction to establish the game force spade fit. Had Responder held a club fit, same route. With three pieces in spades, establishing the existence of two Moysian fits to choose between seems pointless. Opener already established a 4-3 in hearts, and he has known shortness on the short trump side, so how could a spade Moysian be useful to show other than S&G?

 

If Responder wants a further random check back for more information, without commitment, 3D works, because that cannot be an offer of strain in this sequence.

 

This seems to structure out:

 

2S as fit slammish

2NT-P as natural slammish (I use this as confirmation of a fifth heart and slammish, personally, but that's a pet convention)

3C as fit and maybe slammish

3D as punt

3H as fit and slammish (I use this as a second type of slam move in hearts)

3S+ are going to be partnership specific gadgets if not game zooms.

[MrAce]

To me it is gf with 4 card spades, regardless of what shape 1♠ showed. I do not claim this is the optimum use of it, but i would think this is pretty std unless you are playing with someone you know and have better agreements.

[helene_t]

With four hearts and three spades it is probably better to play in the hearts moysian than the spades moysian as the spade length is more likely to be tapped in diamonds. So there is little point in bidding 2♠ here on a 3-card suit. Maybe with very bad hearts ... AKx-Jxxx-xxx-AQx might be tempted to bid 2♠. But with that hand I think I would bid 3♣. Better be accurate about the majors and then you can cheat a little with the minors if you really have to.

[Cyberyeti]

I thought this would be a non problem unanimously. Obviously wrong.

 

It certainly was never going to be unanimous, due to some peculiar things done by old school bidders on this side of the Atlantic where:

 

a) 2♦ is not GF to everybody

b) some people would bid a 5305 this way so want 2♠ to show 3

 

But in a US systems context, I think it's a hand too good to just bid 4♠

[P_Marlowe]

The first question to be answered: Does responder have a forcing way to support spades?

If no, 2S simply showes the fit.

FSF does not imply a 5th heart, and just because opener happens to have a 3 card suit,

does not mean we have found a fit with the 2H bid by opener.

 

I play 2D as inv.+, but this has no effect on the meaning of 2S, it has an effect on the

meaning of 2H (min), but that is it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Siegmund]

2D is not GF to everybody in the USA either.

 

But whichever way you play FSF, this sequence appears to show 4 spades and whichever strength of hand 1C-1H-1S-2S and 1C-1H-1S-3S do not show.

 

Also want to reiterate helene's point that IF we are going to play a 4-3 fit, it needs to be the one where the person with 3 trumps is doing the ruffing, and that looks to only be the case in hearts, where opener can easily be 4315.