ATB for dodgy slam

[ahydra]

Simple ATB. MPs, EW vul, spots approximate

 

[hv=pc=n&w=skt72haj852dcq753&e=saj84h73daj75cak4&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1hp1sp2sp3c(game%20or%20slam%20try)p4d(undiscussed%20-%20probably%20SPL)p4np5h(2%20no%20Q)p6sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Bonus question: how do you play it on the lead of the D10?

 

ahydra

[Bbradley62]

I blame West for accepting an invite with a minimum opener.

 

bonus:

♠2; ♣A; ruff second ♦; ♣K; ruff third ♦ high.

 

last ♠ to J; if it holds, ♠A; ♦A; ♣Q; if 3-3 split, fourth ♣ pitching ♥; ♥A; concede high trump.

 

Makes if (1)♠Q onside, (2)♣ split 3-3 and (3)♠ split 3-2.

[wank]

no blame. east is optimistic to investigate but with plenty of space to get in and out it's fine.

[NickRW]

I blame West for accepting an invite with a minimum opener.

 

It depends on the partnership's style. To me it is pretty much auto to cue below game if partner makes a slam try. Re-assign the 5hcp in ♦ in the form of ♠Q and ♥K and the slam looks good. In that sort of context it is East who should be wondering whether the ♦AJ are pulling full weight and whether his/her hand still looks slammy in that light.

 

On the other hand, if the style is initially to put on the brakes with a min and wait for a possible second slam try, then, yes, I agree West couldn't be much more min and still have opened.

 

Nick

[kenrexford]

East knows that the spade suit probably comes down to a finesse. However, without the 10, he also needs either 3-2 or 2-3 or partner having some helpful pips in spades to have the trump suit be a 50-50 venture. If the spade suit requires extra work, however, the value of the shortness is lost. Thus, before even looking to the side suits, the slam seems less than 50-50 after the 5♥ response. Therefore, IMO, bidding 6♠ was a clear error.

 

Additionally, perhaps East also should have bid 4♥ as Last Train, which West would reject.

 

Thus, I think East is clearly at fault in bidding to 6♠ and may be at fault for bidding past 4♠.

 

 

 

[Cyberyeti]

East knows that the spade suit probably comes down to a finesse. However, without the 10, he also needs either 3-2 or 2-3 or partner having some helpful pips in spades to have the trump suit be a 50-50 venture. If the spade suit requires extra work, however, the value of the shortness is lost. Thus, before even looking to the side suits, the slam seems less than 50-50 after the 5♥ response. Therefore, IMO, bidding 6♠ was a clear error.

 

Additionally, perhaps East also should have bid 4♥ as Last Train, which West would reject.

 

Thus, I think East is clearly at fault in bidding to 6♠ and may be at fault for bidding past 4♠.

 

Well W might have had ♥AKxxx and bid the same way in which case slam is fine, it's just a pure guess.

 

I really dislike the 4♦ bid which I think shows extras above a simple 4♠. Were you playing 4M or 5M ? if 4M, 3♥ is probably the bid.

[kenrexford]

Well W might have had ♥AKxxx and bid the same way in which case slam is fine, it's just a pure guess.

 

I really dislike the 4♦ bid which I think shows extras above a simple 4♠. Were you playing 4M or 5M ? if 4M, 3♥ is probably the bid.

 

As to the first comment, that West MIGHT have AKxxx in hearts, there are two problems with this possibility making the slam fine. First, that is a wild guess. A slam is not a good bet if partner might have some holding that is helpful. A slam during the auction is only a percentage bet if all of the possible hands on average make the slam percentage. Second, though, AKxxx in hearts does not help the fact that playing spades for no losers with the information known is anti-percentage. (Plus, see below...)

 

As to the second comment, I think the strength of the Splinter in this auction is an interesting issue. I personally like splinters in this sequence to be quick-pattern-minimums but slower auctions if stiff but extras. In other words, 4♦ would be weaker than some other sequence as the alternative. This style causes further problems bidding the slam. For, if Opener has, say, AKxxx in hearts, it might make more sense to start with your 3♥ cue and THEN show the diamond control (shortness in this instance) later. That ptional route, therefore, makes AKxxx not likely in hearts.

 

The second issue is that splinters can be more flexible the further away from end point you are. Since 4♦ leaves room for partner to bid 4♥ as "Last Train," 4♦ is flexible enough to be "good enough to accept LTTC" down to "not goof enough to accept LTTC."

 

I don't understand the "were you playing 4M or 5M" question, so I cannot really address that.

 

 

[Cyberyeti]

As to the first comment, that West MIGHT have AKxxx in hearts, there are two problems with this possibility making the slam fine. First, that is a wild guess. A slam is not a good bet if partner might have some holding that is helpful. A slam during the auction is only a percentage bet if all of the possible hands on average make the slam percentage. Second, though, AKxxx in hearts does not help the fact that playing spades for no losers with the information known is anti-percentage. (Plus, see below...)

 

As to the second comment, I think the strength of the Splinter in this auction is an interesting issue. I personally like splinters in this sequence to be quick-pattern-minimums but slower auctions if stiff but extras. In other words, 4♦ would be weaker than some other sequence as the alternative. This style causes further problems bidding the slam. For, if Opener has, say, AKxxx in hearts, it might make more sense to start with your 3♥ cue and THEN show the diamond control (shortness in this instance) later. That ptional route, therefore, makes AKxxx not likely in hearts.

 

The second issue is that splinters can be more flexible the further away from end point you are. Since 4♦ leaves room for partner to bid 4♥ as "Last Train," 4♦ is flexible enough to be "good enough to accept LTTC" down to "not goof enough to accept LTTC."

 

I don't understand the "were you playing 4M or 5M" question, so I cannot really address that.

 

If playing 4 card majors you would open 1♥ with 4-4 in the majors so 3♥ would be a non maximum with 5 hearts.

 

AKxxx you just need spades 3-2 and hearts 4-2 and play ♠AK and ruff the hearts out.

[mikeh]

I blame West for opening a hand I would pass.

 

Having opened, and I accept that many and maybe most would, I further blame West for accepting a gametry. I assume that opener implied a need for help in clubs, were 3♣ a gametry. I'd need to know more before presuming to be definite on this criticism, but if 3♣ could be Kxx or Axx, then I think West ought to have contented himself with 3♠ or, if feeling bullish, 3♥, which would express doubt and willingness to stop in 3♠.

 

Having reached the slam, I ruff and lead a low heart. I am playing to establish the hearts, will obviously need to pick up the spade Q. I expect to play S for that card.

 

How I proceed depends on the defence. N has a problem in real life if he holds the heart K...many players would be incapable of ducking and of those who could many will telegraph the card.

 

Say N follows to the first 3 hearts: I ruff with the 8. Assume it holds, with S following. Now spade A and J, to cater to Q9xx in trump in S.

 

Say hearts are 4-2, with N having 4 and the spade 8 wins! (improbable as heck). Now it appears that N has the spade Q9. I think I need them to be doubleton.

 

If N shows out on the 3rd heart, that increases the odds that he holds the trump length, but I can't pick up Qxx, let alone Q9xx, so I will play S for that card.

 

Basically, if hearts are 3=3, I need S to hold at least 2 spades to the Q, but can be as good as Q9xx.

 

If N has heart shortness, I need S to hold the spade Q, which is slightly against the odds.

 

If N has heart length, I am probably down early and, if not, I need a miracle Q9 tight in the N hand.

 

Edit: of course, N may make a mistake: say he rises with the heart King from Kxxx....now the Q comes down on the second round, and I will pull some trump, hooking S, before ruffing the heart loser.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Simple ATB. MPs, EW vul, spots approximate

 

[hv=pc=n&w=skt72haj852dcq753&e=saj84h73daj75cak4&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1hp1sp2sp3c(game%20or%20slam%20try)p4d(undiscussed%20-%20probably%20SPL)p4np5h(2%20no%20Q)p6sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Bonus question: how do you play it on the lead of the D10?

 

ahydra

To start with I'd respond 2D = 2/1 GF .... not 1S :

1H - 2D!

??

Then with my homegrown system, there are 2 ways for opener to show 4 cards ♠ -- minimum or extras :

2S the direct bid would show extras whereas

2H! = any minimum w/ or w/o 4 cards ♠

.....- 2S! ( asks which ? )

2NT = no 4s

3C = flannery type hand : 4s with singleton ♣

3D = 4s with singleton ♦

3H = 4s 6h , singleton somewhere -- 3S would ask where

3S = 4 5 2 2

3NT = 4 5 2 2 max w/ honors in both minors

4C = 4s with ♣ void

4D = 4s with ♦ void ...

 

After: 4D, Responder signs off in 4S .

[steve2005]

i though this was a play problem not assess the blame? ok didnt see atb butnoone has done the play

[mike777]

dup

[mike777]

35% east

35% west

30% rub of the green.

 

tough hand...west can show a somewhat wide range minimum opener with short D.

 

Now should east go on past 4s...tough. Should east go on once she knows missing Qs?

 

fwiw Prefer 4c rather than 4d but still east has a tough decision.

 

it might go:

 

1h=1s

2s=3c

4c=4d

4h=4s?

p

------

 

 

the alternative makes for an easier decision:

 

1h=2d

2s=3s(2s does not promise extras)

4s=p

[Bbradley62]

i though this was a play problem... butnoone has done the play

See post #2 for an off-the-cuff attempt.

[MrAce]

i though this was a play problem not assess the blame? ok didnt see atb butnoone has done the play

 

 

 

 

Having reached the slam, I ruff and lead a low heart. I am playing to establish the hearts, will obviously need to pick up the spade Q. I expect to play S for that card.

 

How I proceed depends on the defence. N has a problem in real life if he holds the heart K...many players would be incapable of ducking and of those who could many will telegraph the card.

 

Say N follows to the first 3 hearts: I ruff with the 8. Assume it holds, with S following. Now spade A and J, to cater to Q9xx in trump in S.

 

Say hearts are 4-2, with N having 4 and the spade 8 wins! (improbable as heck). Now it appears that N has the spade Q9. I think I need them to be doubleton.

 

If N shows out on the 3rd heart, that increases the odds that he holds the trump length, but I can't pick up Qxx, let alone Q9xx, so I will play S for that card.

 

Basically, if hearts are 3=3, I need S to hold at least 2 spades to the Q, but can be as good as Q9xx.

 

If N has heart shortness, I need S to hold the spade Q, which is slightly against the odds.

 

If N has heart length, I am probably down early and, if not, I need a miracle Q9 tight in the N hand.

 

Edit: of course, N may make a mistake: say he rises with the heart King from Kxxx....now the Q comes down on the second round, and I will pull some trump, hooking S, before ruffing the heart loser.

 

 

[P_Marlowe]

West discribed his hand nicely, assuming 4D to be a splinter,

which is should, values can be shown by bidding 3D.

 

Hence with a min hand and watage in diamonds East should give

up.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mr1303]

For those who say East should pass with wastage opposite a splinter, how would you bid the following?

 

KQxx

Akxxx

X

Qxx

 

Where 7S is a very good contract.

[mcphee]

100% west who accepted a game try with Q empty 4th and splintered to boot! As East I would expect a far better hand than what the opening hand held after the splinter facing what could be poor clubs.

[mcphee]

100% west who accepted a game try with Q empty 4th and splintered to boot! As East I would expect a far better hand than what the opening hand held after the splinter facing what could be poor clubs.

[ahydra]

Thanks for replies all. I was East, partner was West. Our discussion on this hand has gone something like

 

me: 2S is anywhere from 11 to 15, so 4D really is an overbid, you should just bid 4S

pard: having limited my hand already to 7 losers it feels right to show the diamond void rather than just a generic accept

me: void is useful, sure, but it's values/tricks that matter: there is a huge difference between your ♥AJ8xx and say ♥AQJxx or ♥AKxxx

pard: AJxx not the best holding opposite a splinter and your hand is too flat, you know it's 4-4 fit

 

In any event, I could have played it better, and as Ken said I should maybe stop in 5S knowing that slam is on a finesse & 3-2 break.

 

ahydra

[ahydra]

For those who say East should pass with wastage opposite a splinter, how would you bid the following?

 

KQxx

Akxxx

X

Qxx

 

Where 7S is a very good contract.

 

We'd probably bid 3S over 1S with that. Replace the ♣Q with J10 however, and that's a 2S bid, but you still want to go to slam. A hand like that one is the kind I was expecting when partner bid 4D.

 

ahydra

[quiddity]

I like West's bidding more than East's. The opener is aggressive but normal. Accepting the invite with a min+void would be normal at imps; maybe at MPs it's a bit too much but at least it seems close. Having decided to accept splintering seems normal, especially when it's not a one-under splinter, to cater for hands like AQxxx Qx Jxx AKx.

 

East has a pretty mediocre slam invite - minimum number of trumps, no heart help, a bunch of points opposite partner's singleton - he should just invite with 4♥ instead of driving to slam.

[Bbradley62]

For those who say East should pass with wastage opposite a splinter, how would you bid the following?

 

KQxx

Akxxx

X

Qxx

 

Where 7S is a very good contract.

I am not among those targetted in this post, but I would bid 3♠ instead of 2♠ with this West hand.

 

Edit: Oops... didn't see hydra's response before I posted.

[Zelandakh]

Just on a theoretical level (because that is where I am happiest :)) how should the structure over 3♣ be organised? We know from here that 4♦ is a splinter, so presumably 3♦ followed by bidding above 3♠ should be a diamond fragment. But what about 4♣? Could we not use that to differentiate between a diamond singleton and a void? That would surely make East's life here much easier.

 

This is actually a fairly common story, at least on BBF, with splinters. One hand splinters and the other with an ace drives to slam picturing a singleton opposite, only to find that there is a void there and the pitch is not as useful. To this end, I think bidding theoreticians should be making a move towards opening up additional sequences for splinters where possible so that singletons and voids are separated. Many already do that for responses to opening bids but I suspect this concept can be expanded to more general auctions a fair bit more than is currently done to good effect.

[helene_t]

pard: having limited my hand already to 7 losers it feels right to show the diamond void rather than just a generic accept

I agree with this. If pard is going to accept anyway he might as well show the shortage. I don't think 4♦ is stronger than 4♠. The range for 4♠ is narrow enough that an accept is an accept.

 

Whether I would accept at all is a different issue. I am sometimes a bid of a walrus and would be afraid of accepting any game try when having opened a hand that is not rule-of-20. Then again, if 3♣ is a natural game try, my hand looks like it fits well.