bd71 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Playing 2/1 in the Sunday Swiss at a local sectional, you face this decision twice in the same day... Please answer questions assuming bidding as given, but as always other comments are welcome. HAND ONE [hv=pc=n&s=s4haj542dakckq982&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=p1hp2dp3cp3hp3sp4c(serious)p4np5d(0%20or%203)p]133|200[/hv] NOTE: This hand was edited to insert 3S and 4C cues after the first reply made me realize the omission. 5♠ would ask partner to bid grand with the ♥Q. 5N would ask for specific kings. No other relevant agreements. HAND TWO [hv=pc=n&s=sa74hkjt8643dj6cj&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2cp2dp2n(22-23)p4dp4hp4np5d(0%20or%203)p]133|200[/hv] Again, 5♠ would ask partner to bid grand with the ♥Q. 5N would ask for specific kings. No other relevant agreements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 On 1: would KQJx Qxx QJxxxx void gf?[note I'm just illustrating the "can he have 0?" point]If not, I definitely want to be in grand if he has the Q. Lots of chances. On 2: I have no idea. So I didn't keycard; I just cuebid 4S.Gun to my head w no other info I'll bid it I guess but if I had info I might bid vs a good team and settle for 6 vs a bad team. But the bigger point here is maybe not to KC if it doesn't tell you what to do next. On 2, what if p shows 2+Q and you guys are off DAK? Unlucky I guess but I think KC is wrong on 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Why does the Qask ask partner to bid grand with the Q? Isn't it normally "show an outside K if you have the Q"? On 1 I would definitely bid 5S and head for the grand. But on 2 you need the ability to find out about Ks as well as the Q. Two Ks looks to offer good odds on the grand being on (since partner should have e.g. KQ AQ A AK). If he shows only one king I want to stop in 6 for sure. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hand 1 - yes Hand 2 - I've bid this like an idiot, ♥Axx is plenty and I have no way of finding that out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd71 Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 On 1: would KQJx Qxx QJxxxx void gf?[note I'm just illustrating the "can he have 0?" point]If not, I definitely want to be in grand if he has the Q. Lots of chances. On 2: I have no idea. So I didn't keycard; I just cuebid 4S.Gun to my head w no other info I'll bid it I guess but if I had info I might bid vs a good team and settle for 6 vs a bad team. But the bigger point here is maybe not to KC if it doesn't tell you what to do next. On 2, what if p shows 2+Q and you guys are off DAK? Unlucky I guess but I think KC is wrong on 2. My mistake...I screwed up the auction on HAND ONE. After 3♥, there was a 3♠ cue and then a "serious" 4♣ cue. Partner has 3 keycards. I will edit OP if I can. My fear about cue-bidding on HAND TWO is that I pass up the direct/known opportunity to find out about the ♥Q through keycard. When you cue-bid, do you have some type of alternate approach to figure that out? I think I'm willing to bet against the parlay that (a) the 7-8 points we are missing are EXACTLY the ♦AK, and (b) that they lead diamonds first two tricks...all in order to keep grand in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd71 Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hand 2 - I've bid this like an idiot, ♥Axx(x) is plenty and I have no way of finding that out What do you recommend instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 hand 1 7h should be a tremendous contract if p has the heart Q. hand 2 this is is a bit closer but 7h still rates to be pretty darn good if p has the heart Q. P has 22 hcp minimum and for them to have the 3 key cards and the heart Q they use up 14 of those 22. That leaves 8 HCP left to cover our 3 losers. That seems like a poor bet but there are several factors that tremendously improve our odds. P is playing 7h and there is a great chance that almost any opening lead will get us 1 extra trick. We do not specifically need the spade KQ since there are almost unlimited entries to dummy any side KQ will cover 2 our losers (and still have a minimum of 3hcp left for our other loser) and if it is the club KQ and 4+ we are home. P could also have a 5 card dia suit which would have superb chances of having at least the 5th dia set up via ruff(s). There is also the lesser chance of a 5 card club suit coming home via ruffs. If none of that is present there is always the possibility of a squeeze since we will have 12 tricks almost always for certain. The total combination of possibilities seems to exceed the normal 80% requirement needed to bid a grand go for it. we thought of all of this before we decided on a bidding course of action right??:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Depends on your methods, what are 2♥ (presume negative) and 3♥ immediately over 2♣ ? We would be bidding 2♥ over 2♣ and be in a better place. By our methods over 2N I could catch some of the 3 card holdings and all the 4s (not a problem as partner will show the Q with 4 in your sequence) by simply transferring with 3♦ over 2N as we would break the transfer with Axx and a decent 5 card side suit or any 4 card holding. Not so much appropriate to this hand but if 2+ keycards is not enough, you really benefit by playing 4♠ as keycard rather than 4N in some heart auctions even if you don't play kickback elsewhere, 1N-4♦-4♥ is one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 My fear about cue-bidding on HAND TWO is that I pass up the direct/known opportunity to find out about the ♥Q through keycard. When you cue-bid, do you have some type of alternate approach to figure that out? I think I'm willing to bet against the parlay that (a) the 7-8 points we are missing are EXACTLY the ♦AK, and (b) that they lead diamonds first two tricks...all in order to keep grand in the mix. Your partner still has the opportunity to KC after you cue 4S, though, if that makes the most sense with his hand. And I think you're worried about the wrong thing: the HQ is hardly what you should concern you when you have a 7-bagger. If partner cooperates over 4S but doesn't KC, just assume you've got either the Q or 10+ cards. Partner's going to be in the best position, I think, to make a 7-level decision once you get your hand off your chest. You don't have much to say other than "a bunch of hearts, ace of spades, enough values to be in the slam zone." 4S says all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd71 Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Depends on your methods, what are 2♥ (presume negative) and 3♥ immediately over 2♣ ? We would be bidding 2♥ over 2♣ and be in a better place. For us, 2♦ is a catchall that includes any hand that doesn't qualify for a positive response (including busts). Agreed standard for 2M response to 2♣ is 5+ card suit with 2 of top 3, so we don't quite qualify with Hand Two. 2♣-3♥ not defined for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd71 Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 You don't have much to say other than "a bunch of hearts, ace of spades, enough values to be in the slam zone." 4S says all of that. Hmm...seems to me 4♠ says "I have at least 6 hearts, the ♠A and am interested in at least small slam." I want to say "I have 7 hearts, the ♠A and am interested in grand slam." If we try to return the captaincy to partner (who may be reluctant to take it as he has defined his hand narrowly), is there a way to get across that full 2nd message? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 For us, 2♦ is a catchall that includes any hand that doesn't qualify for a positive response (including busts). Agreed standard for 2M response to 2♥ is 5+ card suit with 2 of top 3, so we don't quite qualify with Hand Two. 2♣-3♥ not defined for us. I think I'd bid 2♥ anyway, KQxxx behaves similarly to KJ10xxxx opposite Ax in that it's not quite enough for a grand but opposite Axx it is. This has the hidden side that if partner (holding A or K) asks aces and you deny the Q, you have 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hmm...seems to me 4♠ says "I have at least 6 hearts, the ♠A and am interested in at least small slam." I want to say "I have 7 hearts, the ♠A and am interested in grand slam." If we try to return the captaincy to partner (who may be reluctant to take it as he has defined his hand narrowly), is there a way to get across that full 2nd message? Ok so we bid 4S: 4N: partner has RKC'd, so we're good. 5C: 5D if we play LTTC. 5H otherwise, showing doubt about diamonds. [You made a slam try, and partner made his most positive response, and you signed off. You must be expressing doubt about diamonds.] 5D: 6H. 5H: Here you can flip a coin. I'd probably still bid 6H and pray. Partner's hand isn't that good in context, and it's especially bad for hearts. You can probably make a state of the match/event/opps decision here. I find it hard to believe that partner's doing this with ♥AQ(x) though. You're probably about a flip to make 6, but partner's never doing this with 3 keycards -- I'll tell you that. I think it's poor for partner to bid 6H straight away, and I won't get into what we think his other bids over 5H mean, but the above would be my approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 PS - agree with giving a positive (2-of-3) in hearts over 2C if you have one available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y66 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think I'd bid 2♥ anyway, KQxxx behaves similarly to KJ10xxxx opposite Ax in that it's not quite enough for a grand but opposite Axx it is. This has the hidden side that if partner (holding A or K) asks aces and you deny the Q, you have 7. Agree with 2H if you have OP's agreement but why deny the HQ if partner asks for keycards when you have KJT-7th? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Agree with 2H if you have OP's agreement but why deny the HQ if partner asks for keycards when you have KJT-7th? Because if partner has Ax, he will know you have KJxxxxx as you theoretically showed 2 top hons by bidding 2♥ and now deny the Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 On Hand 1, what would 4♦ over 4♣ have been? Given your agreements it might be better for partner to ask here and even if they bid 4♠ instead we have lost nothing. In Hand 2 we seem to have missed several chances of describing our hand already - spade cue; transfer + splinter; positive response. At this point there is not much left but asking for kings and hoping we are not left with a horrible guess at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I might playu the second even without the heart Q. Really hard to imagine you dont have enough tricks if you can bring the hearts in, and 2-2+stiff Q is good enough, and if partner has three hearts you are flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Why does the Qask ask partner to bid grand with the Q? Isn't it normally "show an outside K if you have the Q"? ahydraI did not see any response to this question, nor any comments about it other than in ahydra's post. I do not understand why the only positive response to the queen ask is a grand slam bid. There are many more hands where responder needs the trump Q and another card to bid the grand. Restricting the queen ask to YES-GRAND SLAM NO-SMALL SLAM is too much for me. Besides, if the asker wants to bid the grand if his partner has just the trump Q, any positive response will get you there. It will just take a little longer. I have seen others state that the Q ask isn't even forcing to the small slam, as they can sign off below slam opposite a negative reply. I have always thought that any ask after the initial key card ask guarantees all of the key cards. But others make an exception for the Q ask, as they are willing to bid the small off one key card if the partnership has the trump Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Art, these particular queen asks are above the level of 5 of the agreed suit so this should be a try for grand and forcing to at least a small slam should certainly be the case. If the queen ask is below 5 of the agreed suit then it is typically not forcing to a small slam. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I have seen others state that the Q ask isn't even forcing to the small slam, as they can sign off below slam opposite a negative reply. I have always thought that any ask after the initial key card ask guarantees all of the key cards. But others make an exception for the Q ask, as they are willing to bid the small off one key card if the partnership has the trump Q.Interesting: an occasional partner, who is a multiple national champion, and I had this come up in a home game. I held Axx AKxxxx Kxx x and he opened a 20-21 2N. I decided to texas and keycard. To my surprise he showed only 1 keycard. We are off an Ace and there is room to be missing the trump Q as well. So I can afford to ask for it. Note that since I used texas, he will show me the Q if he holds 4 trump, so the only time I am missing a decent slam is if he holds Jxx. If the best it can be is playing AKxxxx (no 10) opposite Jxx for no losers, then I don't mind missing it. So I asked and he bid 5♠ showing the heart Q and the spade K. What to do? I was confident I knew exactly what to do. Given that we have 34 hcp (he can't have 19+, even tho we both like to upgrade, because we'd never upgrade a hand with only 1 Ace), we can't be off an AK. Indeed, we might easily have 35 hcp and if his hearts are Qx (or even, on a bad day, Qxx) we could be failing in 6♥. There might be A♦ and a ruff or, more likely, a bad trump split. If hearts run, then both 6N and 6♥ are cold, and if hearts don't run we may easily have 12 winners anyway: only needing 3 heart tricks. I accordingly bid the obvious 6N and he started to think. He finally bid 7♥ and they led the diamond Ace. He thought I had promised all the keys :P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Art, these particular queen asks are above the level of 5 of the agreed suit so this should be a try for grand and forcing to at least a small slam should certainly be the case. If the queen ask is below 5 of the agreed suit then it is typically not forcing to a small slam.Yes, these Q asks were certainly forcing to the small slam. But suppose the asker needs more than just the trump Q? He should be able to ask for the trump Q and get a response that says yes or no and, if yes, I also have this king (or don't). The responses should not be limited to bid the grand with the Q and the small without the Q. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 The responses should not be limited to bid the grand with the Q and the small without the Q.In this we agree 100%. I have also postulated the idea of using bids like this as a way of investigating 6NT versus 6 of the suit, at least at MPs. It is generally possible to construct the responses so as to make this a genuine possibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 The responses should not be limited to bid the grand with the Q and the small without the Q.In this we agree 100%. I have also postulated the idea of using bids like this as a way of investigating 6NT versus 6 of the suit, at least at MPs. It is generally possible to construct the responses so as to make this a genuine possibility.Diferences in replies to Q-ask ( ♥ are trump ) :A)5S! ( ask is ABOVE 5-of-trump ) - ??................. 5NT = ♥ Q and MAY or may not have the ♠K ( the " asking suit " ).................. 6H = NO ♥ Q B)5D! ( ask is BELOW 5-of-trump ) - ??................. 5H = NO ♥ Q................. 5S = ♥ Q and ♠ K................ 5NT = ♥ Q ; NO ♠ K ; but have ♦ K ( the "asking suit " )................. 6C = ♥ Q ; ♣ K; but NO ♠ K or ♦ K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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