Bergen Response or Drury when pd opens 3rd seat?

[Corral_2]

My pd insists on using Bergen responses and says Drury isn't necessary but doesn't give me much of reason for preferring one over the other. I sure would appreciate some input on this.

[helene_t]

If you play 2c as 11+ or 10+ by an unpassed hand, drury will make you play a different system by a passed hand which may be a bit complicated. But if you play 2/1 you might as well play drury.

 

It also depends if yoy like to open on a four card suit in third seat. If so, you need drury

[steve2005]

pick your poison. Drury better when you have a limit raise with a fit. With Bergen you end up one level higher when partner opened light.

Natural 2♣ better when you have 9-11 pts with decent ♣ suit

[Trinidad]

Many people see Drury as a check to see whether opener had a real opening or ... a not so real opening. Forget all about that. That is how the convention was born, but that is not what it is now.

 

The best way to see Drury is as a type of "Bergen raise by a passed hand at the two level". It shows three card support and 8-13 points (the 13 point hands obviously have distribution). There is enough bidding room to split this 6 point range. (When opener immediately rebids 2M, he is not interested, regardless of what the Drury bidder has. When opener rebids something else -showing some game interest- an immediate 2M rebid by the Drury bidder shows a minimum.)

 

As a result, the immediate raise to 2M shows a weak 3 card raise: 4-7 points.

 

The advantage of playing Drury is that your 1NT response can be natural. The forcing 1NT (by an unpassed hand) contains roughly 5 hand types:

- A 3 card limit raise

- A weak 3 card raise

o A 6-10 single suited hand that can't bid at the 2 level

o A 11-12 single suited hand that can't bid at the 2 level (some have other bids than 1NT for these)

+ A 6-9 relatively balanced hand

+ A 10-12 relatively balanced hand

 

When you are a passed hand, the top 2 (with the "-" signs) are taken care off by Drury. The next two (with the "o" signs) don't really exist (or are rare) by a passed hand, since they would have opened with a weak two or a preempt. That leaves the relatively balanced hands. These are hands where 1NT may well be the best contract opposite a minimum balanced opening. So, opener can should pass the "not so forcing 1NT" response with a minimum 5332 hand.

 

My idea is that once you are at the level to add Bergen raises to your bidding arsenal, you might just as well add Drury too. It's just another "Bergen raise", the main difference being that it is only used by a passed hand.

 

Rik

[barmar]

I've moved this thread to General Bridge Forum, as there's nothing BBO-specific about the question.

[barmar]

The theory behind Bergen Raises is that if you have a 9-card fit, you should be at the 3 level. If you have at least half the strength in the deck you're reasonably safe; if you have less, it's likely to be a good sacrifice. Opener is assumed to have at least 5 cards in the suit, so when responder has 4 he can make a jump response, and the suit indicates his hand strength.

 

The problem with using it over a 3rd seat opener is that he might not have the 5-card suit that this convention is based on. And the preemptive value is also reduced, since the opponents have both passed -- they're not heading towards a high contract.

[aguahombre]

It would seem that Drury would be for the 3-card raises only, and that the Bergens are for 4+; but, since I use neither, who knows? At least the 2-way Drury people could free up 2D for something silly like a natural bid if they had Bergens in their bag.

[barmar]

It would seem that Drury would be for the 3-card raises only, and that the Bergens are for 4+; but, since I use neither, who knows?

Why only 3-card raises? If partner opened a 4-card suit in third seat, do you really want to jump to the 3 level?

 

However, I agree with you if partner always has a 5-card suit, and simply shaves on strength in third seat.

[kenberg]

My pd insists on using Bergen responses and says Drury isn't necessary but doesn't give me much of reason for preferring one over the other. I sure would appreciate some input on this.

 

Sometimes third hand opens light, sometimes dealer has three card support and eleven points. What happens, when you are not playing Drury ? Dealer bids 1NT? Is 1NT passable? This might not be good. If it is not passable then after the forced rebid over 1NT dealer does what? If third hand was forced to rebid, even if light, bidding 3♠ sounds risky.

 

Playing Drury, it will go Pass-1♠-2♣-2♠-Pass. (Rebidding the major is the light opening, sometimes called reverse Drury).

 

I like Drury, I like it a lot. My own preference is that Pass-1♠-2♣ shows three or more card spade support. If partner rebids 2♠ I am passing whether I have three or four. I guess I can see either 2♦ as four card Drury (my partners often insist) or 3♦ as Bergen, but my preference is 2♣ as 3+ card Drury.

[aguahombre]

Why only 3-card raises? If partner opened a 4-card suit in third seat, do you really want to jump to the 3 level?

Of course, not. But Bergen Raises shouldn't be available to use unless we can use them. They were designed for a 5cM system, where Responder would like to show 4 card support with either invitational or merely competitive values while gobbling up some of the opponents' space ---making opener's further bidding decisions "informed".

 

Opening a 4 card major in a 5cM style is not designed for any of that, and Bergen raises should not be part of the passed-hand agreements at all, if Opener is one of those. You are playing a 4cM system in 3rd chair, and must load up Drury to compensate...not that it will help you get to NT or a minor suit partial when you do have the 4-3 fit.

[hrothgar]

I prefer the following over a third / 4th seat 1S opening

 

3S = preemptive

3C/3D/3H = fit showing

2N = 4 card limit raise unsuitable for a fit jump

2S = natural

2H = natural

2D = 3 card limit raise

2C = natural

1N = forcing

[Zelandakh]

It may be a little radical but you can effectively get both by reversing the weak and invitational hands:

 

Over 1♠

==

1NT = any invite without 4 spades

2♣♦♥ = natural, weak and non-forcing

2♠ = weak raise

others = 4 card raises

 

Over 1NT, Opener bids 2♦ with 4 hearts (regardless of strength) and 2♣ with any other minimum. After any of these, you can show a good 3 card raise (Drury hand) by bidding 2♠. Any other rebid by Opener establishes a game force.

 

You can play the same structure after a first or second seat opening too (instead of 2/1) but that is more complicated as you also need to add game-forcing relays.

 

Naturally there are also downsides to this - you cannot stop in 1NT and the 3 card support is not shown immediately as in real Drury. Perhaps more importantly, it is unfamiliar.

 

A more familiar version would be to play your normal Bergen raise system a level lower but with 3 card raises included and keep the forcing NT. That is not as good as the other suggestions here but would make your partner's statement true, since Drury is effectively included. The downside here is that the 1NT does not get unloaded, thus having the same issues as after a 1st/2nd seat opening.

 

For a simple system method, I find hrothgar's suggestion highly logical. That takes the points from Rik's list and adjusts it for the fact that there is no weak 2 opening in clubs.

[ggwhiz]

Bergen can be very effective, bouncing to the 3 level especially when 3rd seat has opened light. You just have to consider whether to open on certain hands ie. have a bit extra shape when weak. maybe 5/4 or better?

 

I also find drury useful to help decide how high to compete should the opponents come in or make game tries with less risk. And I still like to open on 4 cards but only in the middle of a mp game that isn't going well as a definite swing tactic but with an upside.

[fromageGB]

If your partner wants to play normal Bergen bids of 3♣/♦ then it depends on how strong the 3rd/4th seat open is. If it can be a couple of points lighter than normal then I certainly don't agree, as you are too high when he is light. But if your opening 1M is full strength in all seats, then certainly keep Bergen. I have played that quite happily. What we did was extend the weak 2 open so that it could be a 5 card suit (different responses) and when we open 1M it is full strength. Any lighter and you have a 2M open. No reason then not to play Bergen if that is your normal method.

 

Alternatively, perhaps he means a possibly light open with the meanings of the Bergen 3m bids moved down to the 2m bids. This would be better, as you don't need 2/1 GF (if that is your system), but it leaves a problem for the invitational 3 card support unless you play a forcing 1NT here.

 

With possibly light opens my preference was for a simple non-forcing 1NT, 2♣ = 8hcp+ 4 card support or 11 with no support (can rebid 2NT if opener shows full strength), 2♦ = 10+ 3 card support, 2M = any weaker support. But I prefer a full blooded 1M and 5/6 card weak 2s. If you want the third seat to have pre-emptive value, then 2M is better than 1M.

[Siegmund]

If my only choices are Bergen and natural 2-bids, or Drury and natural 3-bids, I will definitely choose the Bergen. What I really want to play are fit-jumps in a structure similar to the one hrothgar posted.

 

I hear lots of people saying "do you really want to get to the 3-level with only 8 spades?" ... well.... I'd much rather get to the 3-level with 8 spades than get to the 3-level on a hideous misfit because my system says x Kxx xxx KQxxxx has to jump to 3C!

[kenrexford]

I prefer the following over a third / 4th seat 1S opening

 

3S = preemptive

3C/3D/3H = fit showing

2N = 4 card limit raise unsuitable for a fit jump

2S = natural

2H = natural

2D = 3 card limit raise

2C = natural

1N = forcing

 

I really like seeing that someone else has this view, that 2♣ should be the natural call and 2♦ the "Drury" call. Especially if playing a Weak 2♦, you never have the natural diamond call but do have the natural club call, and one step of preemption on Drury does not hurt anything.

[dustinst22]

I prefer the following over a third / 4th seat 1S opening

 

3S = preemptive

3C/3D/3H = fit showing

2N = 4 card limit raise unsuitable for a fit jump

2S = natural

2H = natural

2D = 3 card limit raise

2C = natural

1N = forcing

 

I like this list, but why are we preempting after a 3rd/4th seat opener?

[awm]

I really like seeing that someone else has this view, that 2♣ should be the natural call and 2♦ the "Drury" call. Especially if playing a Weak 2♦, you never have the natural diamond call but do have the natural club call, and one step of preemption on Drury does not hurt anything.

 

Elianna thought of this over a decade ago and it's been on our card ever since. She's promoted it to a number of her friends as well. It does have the downside of making it harder to use Drury as a psychic control however.

[mikeh]

Elianna thought of this over a decade ago and it's been on our card ever since. She's promoted it to a number of her friends as well. It does have the downside of making it harder to use Drury as a psychic control however.

I thought systemic psychic controls were illegal

[awm]

I thought systemic psychic controls were illegal

 

Well I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I know a number of people who play Drury the following way:

 

Pass - 1M

2♣...

 

2♦ = I have something resembling an opening bid

2M = partner is absolutely barred from bidding on

 

Effectively this allow you to open on any garbage without risk of getting higher than 2M. This would apply, for example, if first seat held:

 

♠Kxxxx

♥xxx

♦-

♣AQxxx

 

Sure, some of us would choose to open, but say I pass in first and partner opens a third seat 1♠. Now according to this method, I bid 2♣ drury and if partner bids 2♠ I must pass. This protects in case partner opened for the lead on ♠AQx ♥xxx ♦xxxx ♣xxx for example. To me this is an (illegal) psychic control, especially since the possibility of opening 1♠ on a three-card holding with six high card points is very much not an allowed agreement in the ACBL. But like I said, I know a lot of people who play Drury this way.

 

If 2♦ is Drury, opener's 2♠ rebid just says "I would not accept a limit raise" and responder with some ridiculous hand like the one given must take another call.

[blackshoe]

The regulation is vague - perhaps deliberately so. The vagueness, though, makes it hard to understand what is and is not illegal. But I think that the way to interpret it is that if you have an agreement in place like "if opener rebids 2M, responder is absolutely barred from bidding on" and then it turns out that opener has a hand like the six pointer described, then opener has violated the prohibition against psychic controls. As this can hardly have been accidental, I would impose severe penalties against it, in additional to whatever rectification the laws and regulations require.

 

OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised to hear other interpretations.

[aguahombre]

The regulation is vague - perhaps deliberately so. The vagueness, though, makes it hard to understand what is and is not illegal. But I think that the way to interpret it is that if you have an agreement in place like "if opener rebids 2M, responder is absolutely barred from bidding on" and then it turns out that opener has a hand like the six pointer described, then opener has violated the prohibition against psychic controls. As this can hardly have been accidental, I would impose severe penalties against it, in additional to whatever rectification the laws and regulations require.

 

OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised to hear other interpretations.

We have heard other interpretations ad nauseum, here for intstance.

 

Another, on Bridgewinners, explored the legalities and differences between psychic controls and controlled psychs.

[Hanoi5]

I play both Drury and Bergen over partner's 3rd and 4th seat opening. Also mini-drury. Drury and mini-drury show 3-card support while Bergen shows 4+.

[aguahombre]

I play both Drury and Bergen over partner's 3rd and 4th seat opening. Also mini-drury. Drury and mini-drury show 3-card support while Bergen shows 4+.

If Drury and your mini-drury both show 3-card support, that sounds like "mini-drury" is specifically designed as a psychic control to allow for Opener's real suit to be trumps. Am I wrong?