avoscill Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 A few days ago I have been strucked by a discussion at a nearby table, where the following simple auction occured: North opened 1♣, East overcalled 1♠, South and West passed, and North rebid 1NT, which ended the auction. It turned out that North had a 18-19 balanced hand, and poor South was heavily critisized for not having raised partner to game, with his 7-8 count (he didn't respond 1NT in the first place because he didn't have a spade stopper). To me, North's position, the moment he bid 1NT, was one of balancing, and his strength range for that bid should be the normal 12-14 (they play strong notrump opening, 15-17). Since a few good players held very strong opinions about North showing 18-19, I am curious about what more expert players think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petterb Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 1NT shows 18-19. Why would you want to bid 1NT with 12-14 when partner could not bid over 1♠? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Ditto. This is wildly different from balancing opposite a partner who did not have enough or the right shape to overcall opposite a partner who did not open. Besides, whatever the logic might be in the abstract, the standard meaning of the 1NT reopen s 18.to 19. 19 to 20 if 16 to 18 1NT opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 1NT in this seat now shows a strong hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 actually a 1NT rebid shows 18-19 whenever pass is an option. Pass is the default bid with 12-14 balanced on your second round, you have already shown the main info of your hand: you have opening values. Supporting partner takes preference over pass, but you get the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenMan Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 In general, if there's an overcall either before or after responder passes, opener basically needs 6 extra points to bid again, since he has to make up for responder's possible zero count; he's essentially bidding for two now. (Reopening doubles are another matter, but IMHO you need at least some extras for those as well.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 This is quite common actually. The only question is whether you also want to do it on semi balanced hands a touch weaker as well like KJx x KJx AKJTxx. In Weak NT systems also some strong NT's should probably be included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avoscill Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Thank you for the explanations. I suppose my mistake was to think that responder requires a spade stopper in order to bid 1NT, and at least 10 points to speak at the two level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffford76 Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I suppose my mistake was to think that responder requires a spade stopper in order to bid 1NT, and at least 10 points to speak at the two level. These things are both true, basically, so I'm not sure that you have understood what people said in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 These things are both true, basically, so I'm not sure that you have understood what people said in this thread. Quite; no one said anything about your initial pass and you should not rethink it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Don't they still teach that 1NT in this situation is stronger than a strong NT in beginning bridge classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Don't they still teach that 1NT in this situation is stronger than a strong NT in beginning bridge classes? It's a fairly low-frequency auction; maybe they just don't bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Don't they still teach that 1NT in this situation is stronger than a strong NT in beginning bridge classes? Not in beginning classes, you have too many things to cover and practice b4 this. But it may depend on what u meant by beginning classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Thank you for the explanations. I suppose my mistake was to think that responder requires a spade stopper in order to bid 1NT, and at least 10 points to speak at the two level. Responder can also raise or double with less or stretch to bid at the two-level with a six-card suit, so there aren't many hands that have to pass over an overcall with decent values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 actually a 1NT rebid shows 18-19 whenever pass is an option. 1C P 1H 1S1N It's far from universal for this to show 18-19. Some play that it shows a "good weak NT with a stop"; others play it to show 14-16 or so, primarily to cater to 4225. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenMan Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 1C P 1H 1S1N It's far from universal for this to show 18-19. Some play that it shows a "good weak NT with a stop"; others play it to show 14-16 or so, primarily to cater to 4225. Completely different auction. The OP and subsequent posts are about auctions where responder has PASSED. (EDIT: never mind, I misread this part of the conversation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Completely different auction. The OP and subsequent posts are about auctions where responder has PASSED. I believe the post I quoted was discussing other auctions as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenMan Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 I believe the post I quoted was discussing other auctions as well. Ah right; my mistake. I agree with you, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avoscill Posted January 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 These things are both true, basically, so I'm not sure that you have understood what people said in this thread.Now I'm again puzzled, for responder will have to pass with, say, ♠xxx♥KQx♦Kxxx♣xxx because he doesn't stop spades, or♠xx♥KQxxxx♦Kxx♣xx because not strong enough; and opener too will have to pass, holding♠AKx♥JTxx♦Qxx♣QJx because he needs 18-19 hcp. To me It doesn't sound good to let them play 1♠, with strength equally divided. Does this treatment have something to do with probabilities? Maybe, on this auction, opener is going to be 18-19 balanced more often than 12-14 balanced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion77 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Now I'm again puzzled, for responder will have to pass with, say, ♠xxx♥KQx♦Kxxx♣xxxbecause he doesn't stop spades, or He can bid a negative double here but pass is defensible, if opener can't balance we probably can't make anything. ♠xx♥KQxxxx♦Kxx♣xxbecause not strong enough; and opener too will have to pass, holding Here, responder definitely bids a negative double and pulls 1NT/2♣/2♦ to 2♥, or raises 2♥ to game with a 7 loser hand (some would only invite though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Now I'm again puzzled, for responder will have to pass with, say, ♠xxx♥KQx♦Kxxx♣xxx because he doesn't stop spades, or♠xx♥KQxxxx♦Kxx♣xx because not strong enough; and opener too will have to pass, holding♠AKx♥JTxx♦Qxx♣QJx because he needs 18-19 hcp. To me It doesn't sound good to let them play 1♠, with strength equally divided. Does this treatment have something to do with probabilities? Maybe, on this auction, opener is going to be 18-19 balanced more often than 12-14 balanced? Definitely in your second example you can make a takeout double then bid hearts showing extra length next time if appropriate. The first example is more difficult. Some play that a negative double is a 100% guarantee of four hearts in which case you cannot double. If that is not your agreement then you may be able to double. Alternatively, I would consider raising to 2minor but my view maybe very non-standard as I am used to playing four-card suits and weak no trump so I know that partner has length in the minor and if balanced extra strength. Your actual example I may choose to not raise to 2C with three small. You other point that it doesnt seem right to defend 1S with points divided is flawed. Unless the opponents are particularly weak it is quite unlikely they are playing 1S with a good fit - the partner who is almost marked with some values would have raised. If they dont have a fit there is an appreciable chance that you do not have a fit. Unless you can play 1NT, and 1NT is a small target, you may end up playing a contract at a higher level without a fit - so taking them out of trouble and getting into trouble yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avoscill Posted January 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 He can bid a negative double here but pass is defensible, if opener can't balance we probably can't make anything. Here, responder definitely bids a negative double and pulls 1NT/2♣/2♦ to 2♥, or raises 2♥ to game with a 7 loser hand (some would only invite though). Doesn't the negative double promise 4 cards in the unbid major? And why couldn't NS make 1NT, with 21 hcp inline? In the second example responder may indeed double, but just invert hearts with diamonds, and he can't pull opener's 2♥ rebid any more. And he may have only two hearts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion77 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Doesn't the negative double promise 4 cards in the unbid major? And why couldn't NS make 1NT, with 21 hcp inline? Quite often, but not always. In this case, all weak opener rebids (1NT/2♣/2♦/2♥) would be a playable spot and the only time when a negative double with only 3 hearts might turn out to be a problem is if opener is strong with 4 hearts and jumps. However, KQx is not such a bad holding and opener will often be short in spades in this case (unless he has precisely the 18-19 NT hand with 4 hearts) so you should be playing in hearts anyway. Of course, like I said you can also pass and wait for partner to re-open but then you have a different problem - if it goes pass-pass and partner re-opens with a double, what would you bid? I think you have to settle for 2♣ which might easily not be the best spot (mildly said). In the second example responder may indeed double, but just invert hearts with diamonds, and he can't pull opener's 2♥ rebid any more. And he may have only two hearts... With long diamonds instead of hearts you should pass and hope to be able to compete later. If your diamonds are stronger (KQJ10xx for example), you can double and pull 2♥ to 3♦ but if partner jumps to 3 or even 4 hearts it would be irritating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion77 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 And why couldn't NS make 1NT, with 21 hcp inline? 1♠ is an overcall with some preemptive quality so you should strive to make it with any excuse. Sometimes, you can make something but you simply can't bid it. In the long run, reopening 1NT with 12-14 balanced just because you might be able to make it when 1♠ also makes simply won't be profitable. It's much more important to be able to show the 18-19 hand without going too high than to worry about defending 1♠ when points are evenly divided and opps have no fit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 endymion77 has given good posts on this. But, there is more. When Responder has some points but doesn't act after the overcall, he will invariably do it slowly (break in tempo), giving the opener with his 12-14 flat more reason to believe his side should continue to compete. Although hard to prove Opener read something, the reopening with a flatty is so unusual the use of UI is suspected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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