So much strength, so few good bids

[ahydra]

IMPs, 12-board match.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa3hak8764d7cakj8&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1hp2d(10+%20%5BGF%20opp%20strong%20NT%5D)p3c(NAT%2015+%20%5BGF%5D)p3np]133|200[/hv]

 

What's the right bid here to keep slam in hearts as an option? Surely 4H is getting passed.

 

ahydra

[eagles123]

how about 4♣?

[Flem72]

Q♥, K♠. Q♣ ? I'm a K+ and a ♥ card better than I might be (though I wish I held ♥10), and I think I'm willing to play 5N. What about 4♠, then 5♥ over 4N? Partner could hold KQx Qx QJTxxx xx or Qxx xx KQJTx Qxx or anything in between. If the last one is Kx xx KQJTxx Qxx, 6♦ is in the picture, though some would bid 4♦ instead of 3N with that..

 

What was the responding hand?

[gszes]

your early bidding did not plan future bidding well. If you had started with 3h (vs 3c) you would

 

have concentrated on your best asset (hearts) and shown p your extra values. Your hand is so

 

strong that you easily have a slam try in both hearts and clubs and it makes a lot more sense to

 

get that heart length in before worrying about clubs since it is super easy to bid clubs later once

 

you have shown game forcing power but hearts may far too often be mistaken for trying to sign off

 

(as you see here).

 

 

 

[mike777]

edit

[the hog]

I disagree with bidding 3H, which should show a single suiter and also with now bidding 4C which shows 5/5. The bidding is fine up until the final pass. I would bid 4NT now.

[ggwhiz]

I disagree with bidding 3H, which should show a single suiter and also with now bidding 4C which shows 5/5. The bidding is fine up until the final pass. I would bid 4NT now.

 

I agree and think that a stiff heart in the north hand is a live possibility in the north hand as is only a 10 count or a bunch more so north decides to park it or move on.

[helene_t]

Agree with 4nt. I don't think it is very likely that hearts play better. Even if the diamond suit is a problem in notrumps we usually don't get a diamond lead on this auction. Otoh it is not likely that we can ruff out the diamonds either.

[wanoff]

Pass.

When you say 10+ I presume you upgrade 9 with a decent 5 cd suit.

If you're feeling lucky then 4NT is possible.

[fromageGB]

I don't play a 2 over 1 this weak, and it seems the problem is that the system cannot cater for strong hands if the only strong bid is 15+. As it is, all you can do is 4NT and let partner choose to bid or not.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't play a 2 over 1 this weak, and it seems the problem is that the system cannot cater for strong hands if the only strong bid is 15+. As it is, all you can do is 4NT and let partner choose to bid or not.

 

You can do what we do and play 2N as GF not necessarily balanced for the really big 2 suiters. Thus 1♥-2♦-2N-3N(actually unlikely, we rebid as cheaply as we sensibly can, more likely is 3♦-3♥-3N)-4♣ would show this hand and be bigger than the simple reverse. It would also imply that the slam was being looked for in hearts as partner would have bid 3♣ over 2N if he held them.

 

The 5-5 would rebid 3♣ then 4♣ so this is almost certainly 6-4.

[ahydra]

This was partner's hand. Looking at these replies it makes me wonder whether I should not have bid 3NT. I held ♠K105 ♥J2 ♦AKQ6 ♣10643 - better than a minimum 2D, but I didn't think I had enough to bid 4C, especially since 3NT looks obvious with my flat hand and spade stopper. I could have tried 3S or something - but even then, partner is still a bit stuck, and I don't think we should be giving away lots of info just in case partner has a good hand - most of the time he will have the minimum 15 or 16.

 

I suggested to partner he could try 4NT and I would have raised that to 6NT with my hand due to the good diamonds, HJ probably being a very useful card and the club fit. 4C would be 5-5 so I don't think there are any other options really.

 

ahydra

[Zelandakh]

If you play the 2 over 1 response as strictly 10+ (rather than any GF opposite 15 bal) then it makes sense to play the sequence as either self-forcing or forcing to 2NT. That allows Opener either to rebid 2♥ on hands like this or for 3♣ to be a more genuine high-hat reverse and 17+ points. If the 2♦ response is simply Acol then I would be ok with Opener passing 3NT if Opener's rebid was also Acol. But the combination of weak 2/1s and weak rebids leaves you poorly placed.

 

With the actual hand I think 3NT was surely an underbid if 3♣ was normal Acol. But even here reaching 6♥ rather than 6♣ is going to be challenging. That is also the case for the 4NT bidders, which will probably catch 6♣ (and not the 5♣ - 5♥ - 6♥ one would see in a bidding thread).

[Cyberyeti]

This was partner's hand. Looking at these replies it makes me wonder whether I should not have bid 3NT. I held ♠K105 ♥J2 ♦AKQ6 ♣10643 - better than a minimum 2D, but I didn't think I had enough to bid 4C, especially since 3NT looks obvious with my flat hand and spade stopper. I could have tried 3S or something - but even then, partner is still a bit stuck, and I don't think we should be giving away lots of info just in case partner has a good hand - most of the time he will have the minimum 15 or 16.

 

I suggested to partner he could try 4NT and I would have raised that to 6NT with my hand due to the good diamonds, HJ probably being a very useful card and the club fit. 4C would be 5-5 so I don't think there are any other options really.

 

ahydra

 

I hate to do this, but I have to respond 2♣ on that hand or partner will assume I have 5 diamonds if I later show 4 clubs.

 

What agreements do you have about 1♥-3N ?

 

I'm not sure 6♣ is much worse than 6♥ as you can cope with clubs 3-2 and hearts 4-1 or clubs 4-1 and hearts 3-2.

[fromageGB]

If 2♦ is the system reply, then 3NT is the only bid. But that would be 5 card diamonds for us, so I start 2♣(may not be club suit) intending to rebid 2NT(13+). Partner makes the relay 2♦ as he does not have a strong 5-5, so I do bid 2NT. Then 3♣ 3♦ 3♥ 4♥ seems ordained, and partner won't stop there. If in your methods you have to bid 2♦ then your partner must surely bid 4NT over your 3NT.

[ahydra]

I bid 2D rather than 2C because I had AKQx vs 10xxx - simple as that :) 2C works a lot better on this hand, obviously - though admittedly it also works better if partner's minor lengths are reversed, because he can jump to 3D and I can bid 4D.

 

1H-3NT would probably just be a pudding raise type thing, 3343/3334 with 13-15.

 

ahydra

[Fluffy]

making 6♣ doesn't require much, just ♣Q10x across with ♠K will do the trick, given that partner culd still have 4 clubs I am going to bid 4♣ now.

[mcphee]

I can appreciate why N responded 2D, I do not like 3NT so much as there is time to reach that is we simply bid 3H. A lot depends here (for me) if the 3C bid showed reverse values assuming they are using 2/1. Bidding 3H does not show 3 card support, and our KS can allow us to bid 3N should partner bid 3S. Which is likely what would take place with the 6/4 hand bidding again over 3NT. Responder now can see that 6C or even 6N may have play.

[ahydra]

I can appreciate why N responded 2D, I do not like 3NT so much as there is time to reach that is we simply bid 3H. A lot depends here (for me) if the 3C bid showed reverse values assuming they are using 2/1. Bidding 3H does not show 3 card support, and our KS can allow us to bid 3N should partner bid 3S. Which is likely what would take place with the 6/4 hand bidding again over 3NT. Responder now can see that 6C or even 6N may have play.

 

We do not play 2/1 (I highlighted the 2D bid in the OP to explain this). The 3C shows nearly reverse values - around 15-21 HCPs. I agree 3H would be a good call, and did consider it at the table, but rejected it because partner would probably take me for 3-card heart support (since opposite 1M opening with a 3-card limit raise, we start with 2x and rebid 3M). Plus, if 3NT was left in it would be nice to have the lead come around to K10x of spades.

 

Would you call 4NT over 3NT with the big hand, or something else?

 

ahydra

[ArtK78]

I have to agree with gszes that the strong hand did not plan the bidding well over 2♦. But I disagree with the plan that gszes suggests.

 

i would bid 2♥ over 2♦. This will allow me to bid clubs over any rebid that partner makes, and to bid again over partner's subsequent rebid. So I will be able to show a strong hand with 6-4 shape. This is unusual, in that normally the suit bidding sequence A-A-B is the weaker way to show this pattern (as opposed to A-B-A). But it is necessitated by space restrictions.

 

As the actual auction has gone, I think you are endplayed into bidding 4NT.

[MrAce]

I have to agree with gszes that the strong hand did not plan the bidding well over 2♦. But I disagree with the plan that gszes suggests.

 

i would bid 2♥ over 2♦. This will allow me to bid clubs over any rebid that partner makes, and to bid again over partner's subsequent rebid. So I will be able to show a strong hand with 6-4 shape. This is unusual, in that normally the suit bidding sequence A-A-B is the weaker way to show this pattern (as opposed to A-B-A). But it is necessitated by space restrictions.

 

As the actual auction has gone, I think you are endplayed into bidding 4NT.

 

Yes, Zel pointed out that too, but we still don't know if 2♦ promised another rebid or not. If it promised you can bid 2♥ to gain space but as you admitted also AAB could mislead responder in another hand, where ABA could be solving problems at that point.

 

Fwiw, i am with those who are suggesting 4 NT over 3 NT.

[ahydra]

Opener rebidding his suit (1x-2y-2x) is not forcing for us. Responder will pass with an average 10-count, and then you look like a right numpty.

 

3H on the other hand is 100% GF and shows the 6th heart, but probably doesn't buy more than 3NT from pard, in which case you're no better off than you were here. This hand is obviously a poster child for 2/1 GF :)

 

ahydra

[P_Marlowe]

4NT, Quantitative.

 

If you accept the quant raise always by answering the Key Cards,

you can bid 6H, to give partner the option to choose between

6H and 6NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe