Slammy?

[mfa1010]

[hv=pc=n&s=shdc]133|100[/hv][hv=pc=n&s=shq852dkqt83ckt53&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1c(16+)1s2d4spp]133|200[/hv]

 

1♣: Precision, any 16+.

2♦: No gadgets as responder, so we'll have to live with a natural GF 2♦.

Pass over 4♠: Normal forcing pass-principles, so X would have been to play 4♠X, and if we double it is to play as well.

 

What now?

 

You are welcome to assume your favourite agreements for such situations.

[blackshoe]

Hm. I have played 4NT at this point to be takeout, so I'll try that.

[CSGibson]

5♠. In my mind, partner can bid 5N as pick a slam, I'll choose clubs, and he can rechoose diamonds to suggest the reds if that's what he has in mind. Plus, partner may be able to kick it to grand if he had a hand that was going to perpetrate a pass/pull auction.

[akhare]

Interesting problem. X is out of question (at least IMO), 4N might be construed as an offer to play (or even the minors, emphasizing ♦s), and 5♠ / 5N commit us to the 6-level.

 

In this case, I will take the low road with 4N and hopefully we'll get another chance to consider bidding. If pard passes it out, we rank to make it.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=shq852dkqt83ckt53&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1c(16+)1s2d4spp]133|200|

1♣: Precision, any 16+.

2♦: No gadgets as responder, so we'll have to live with a natural GF 2♦.

Pass over 4♠: Normal forcing pass-principles, so X would have been to play 4♠X, and if we double it is to play as well.

What now?

You are welcome to assume your favourite agreements for such situations.

[/hv]

IMO 4N (followed by 5♠) = 10, 5♠ = 9, 5♣ = 6, Double = 5, 5N = 4.

[gnasher]

I'd bid 4NT and then pass the response.

 

Driving slam seems excessive, especially if we're going to play in diamonds. It's easy to picture hands with no spade wastage, but partner is allowed to have a spade card. I wouldn't expect him to double 4♠ with Axx Kxxx Axx AQx.

 

If he does have a miracle hand like xxx AKx Axx AQxx I expect he'll tell me about it.

[helene_t]

I wonder what the difference between direct 5♠ and 4NT-(..)-5♠ is. I think the direct 5♠ shows longer diamonds and the slow route shows the flexible hand.

[mfa1010]

4NT is takeout. But does it show 3 suits or could it be 6-4 in the minors and misfit for hearts? What does the 4NT bidders expect?

 

 

I wonder what the difference between direct 5♠ and 4NT-(..)-5♠ is. I think the direct 5♠ shows longer diamonds and the slow route shows the flexible hand.

 

I wonder about these things too.

 

If one is to bid slam, there are a huge number of sequences available: 4NT followed by a raise, 4NT followed by 5♠, 4NT followed by 5NT, 5♠, 5NT, and various sequences where we correct partner's choice of strain to some other strain. It annoys me that much of this is so ill-defined, not that every sequence needs a specific meaning, but it would be nice to have a rough idea.

[gnasher]

4NT is takeout. But does it show 3 suits or could it be 6-4 in the minors and misfit for hearts? What does the 4NT bidders expect?

It might be 5-4 with either clubs or hearts as the second suit. Responding to partner's pass is like responding to a takeout double, so 4NT is two places to play. 5♣ would be a stronger suggestion to play in clubs, so normally 5-5.

 

I wonder about these things too.

 

If one is to bid slam, there are a huge number of sequences available: 4NT followed by a raise, 4NT followed by 5♠, 4NT followed by 5NT, 5♠, 5NT, and various sequences where we correct partner's choice of strain to some other strain. It annoys me that much of this is so ill-defined, not that every sequence needs a specific meaning, but it would be nice to have a rough idea.

 

Perhaps I should wait for Phil King to answer this, but how about:

4NT then 5♠ = cue-bid for the last-bid suit

4NT then 5NT = further choice of strains (or perhaps it should be a grand-slam try without first-round spade control)

5♠ direct = cue-bid for diamonds

5NT direct = three-suited

[dake50]

I'd bid 4NT and then pass the response.

Driving slam seems excessive, especially if we're going to play in diamonds. It's easy to picture hands with no spade wastage, but partner is allowed to have a spade card. I wouldn't expect him to double 4♠ with Axx Kxxx Axx AQx.

 

*** Disagree. If partner does not see slam, either a spade card wasted in a 16-18

or poor (<5) controls, he must double (as a no slam warning).

Even with maximal controls 17, this hand has the abysmal 3343 = deduct 2.

 

If he does have a miracle hand like xxx AKx Axx AQxx I expect he'll tell me about it. -- gnasher

 

*** That's about his expectable normal to employ forcing pass.

He won't let any move by me to further describe my 2D-GF stop short of slam.

 

*** As others suggest, this is an area in bidding theory that is woefully

under discussed, even to by-guess, by-golly. Seldom even some bids chosen are clear; others murky.

 

*** After forcing pass was chosen, I try 5S. Partner should have little wasted in spades

and more than minimum honors opposite my 3-suiter.

I expect he reads a slam-agreeing 3-suiter picks 5S.

[Jinksy]

4NT: 'Pick an agreement, P'.

 

I don't expect it to be passed.

[ArtK78]

I'd bid 4NT and then pass the response.

 

Driving slam seems excessive, especially if we're going to play in diamonds. It's easy to picture hands with no spade wastage, but partner is allowed to have a spade card. I wouldn't expect him to double 4♠ with Axx Kxxx Axx AQx.

 

If he does have a miracle hand like xxx AKx Axx AQxx I expect he'll tell me about it.

I agree. Just because partner showed a strong hand and did not double 4♠ doesn't mean that there are 12 tricks here. And if there are, partner should have a reasonable idea where to play it when I bid 4NT.

[mfa1010]

[4NT] might be 5-4 with either clubs or hearts as the second suit. Responding to partner's pass is like responding to a takeout double, so 4NT is two places to play. 5♣ would be a stronger suggestion to play in clubs, so normally 5-5.

 

I agree. This seems to me to be the normal way to play these 4NTs.

 

It is a weakness in the cautious plan (4NT then pass) that hearts are hidden. We could easily belong in hearts, and partner will have a tough time bidding them over 4NT.

 

 

Perhaps I should wait for Phil King to answer this, but how about:

4NT then 5♠ = cue-bid for the last-bid suit

4NT then 5NT = further choice of strains (or perhaps it should be a grand-slam try without first-round spade control)

5♠ direct = cue-bid for diamonds

5NT direct = three-suited

 

Thanks.

4NT then 5♠: I agree. A high-level cuebid directly after partner bid a suit is usually forwardgoing in that suit. I would expect that to apply here as well.

4NT then 5NT: I agree with further choice of strains. Getting to the right strain is so important.

 

I don't know about the last two. Your suggestion sounds good.

[nige1]

If he does have a miracle hand like xxx AKx Axx AQxx I expect he'll tell me about it.

With that hand, what would gnasher bid over his partner's 4N?

[gnasher]

With that hand, what would gnasher bid over his partner's 4N?

5NT, denying first-round spade control and showing two places to play.

[CSGibson]

I have further thoughts that inform my own choice: While it is possible that partner has 4 HCP of spade wastage, that is a worst case scenerio. As it is, I have a fit for whatever partner's suit is, and my diamonds will provide a source of tricks, as will ruffing spades with my trump holding. Partner may have doubled with some 4-3-3-3 hand with an ace or K of spades, so I'm not expecting the worst case scenerio of a minimum HCP wise with max wastage and bad trick taking ability.

 

I'm not saying slam is clear, because it isn't, but I do think that slam odds favor the more aggressive action - sometimes you were going down in 5 anyway, sometimes you make on misdefence...I'm putting cards in partner's hand where he might make a forcing pass with an ambiguous hand (ie, won't force to slam over our action), and I think we make more than half.

 

Now as to why 5♠ instead of 4N - this is an undiscussed high level auction. I am 100% sure that 5♠ won't be passed, and it gives partner the opportunity to suggest other strains with 5N/6C. On the other hand, I'm only 98% sure that 4N won't be passed.

 

My intuitive feel between the difference between the sequence 4N-5♠ compared to 5♠ directly is that the slower sequence should show more interest in grand, not a difference in shapes, but I can certainly be convinced that 1) that's not standard and 2) its also idiodic. I haven't given it much thought, frankly.

[the_clown]

I would bid 4N and raise 5♣ to 6 (with 5-5 I would have bid 6♣ directly so partner should know).

 

The spade void is huge and partner will not be able to visualize it. Partner already showed something positive so I don't want to put too much pressure on him bidding on. Expect that slam will have good play most of the time.

[MrAce]

One way or another, i will drive to slam. I am with Chris on this one.

[Fluffy]

5♠ looks 3 suited to me, while 5NT is 2 suited.

 

Partner has shown (or rather strongly suggested) support for diamonds with his pass, for me this makes 4NT RKCW although I am not fully sure, so I'd rather avoid the bid.

[wank]

i'm in the slam camp - i've gone off before. i'll just bid 5nt. i don't want partner getting carried away.

[Finch]

I would generally expect partner to have one wasted spade card on this auction; the ace is actually quite likely. Partner is very likely to be a balanced.

I'm not entirely sure partner can have xxx AKx Axx AQxx because that doesn't look quite strong enough for pass-then-pull and is far too good to stand a double.

 

So I don't want to do too much. I agree that we are quite likely to be making a slam but getting to the right strain is going to be hard. I'm torn between 4NT and pass the response, and 5NT and pass the response. I think 5NT should be a 3-suiter, but I've not discussed that with anyone.

[mfa1010]

Partner had

♠ Ax

♥ KJTx

♦ A9

♣ A9xxx

 

Slam is mediocre.

6♣ can make, if we guess who to play for the stiff ♣H.

6♥ go down on a club ruff but would roll if they don't find it, because the diamonds come in.

 

I think shooting a slam is a fair bet, provided we know what we are doing in the bidding.

[mfa1010]

The hand is not from my regular partnership, but I realized we don't have good definitions for the highlevel bids either. We would have been better off, since we have a bid over 1♠ for immediately showing a true 3-suiter with shortness in the overcalled suit.

 

But that is beside the point. We want to have good meta-agreements. I think playing 5NT as offering all three suits is a good treatment. 5♠ could then be 1st round control with mainly or only diamonds and a try for grand slam.

 

In a sequence where we have not yet shown a suit, I'm not sure how to play. Say:

 

(4♠)-X-(pass):

4NT = takeout, 2 suits

4NT then 5♠ = 1st round control, grand slam try in partner's chosen strain

4NT then 5NT = choose again, maybe we belong somewhere else

5NT = 3-suited

5♠ = ? Any suggestions in this context?

[gnasher]

Partner had

♠ Ax

♥ KJTx

♦ A9

♣ A9xxx

 

Slam is mediocre.

6♣ can make, if we guess who to play for the stiff ♣H.

6♥ go down on a club ruff but would roll if they don't find it, because the diamonds come in.

 

I think shooting a slam is a fair bet, provided we know what we are doing in the bidding.

I regard that hand as a vindication of my decision not to bid slam.

 

On this deal "know what you're doing" doesn't just mean "know what suits are being shown". Partner seems to have a lot of useful 10s and 9s, and the location of his jack is rather important:

- Opposite Ax KJ10x Ax A9xxx, 6♥ is the best of a bad bunch of slams.

- Opposite Ax KJxx Ax Axxxx, 6♥ is pretty poor on the bidding.

- Opposite Ax K10xx Ax AJ9xx, 6♣ is best, but again nothing special.

- Opposite Ax KJ10x Ax AJ9xx, 6♥ is best.

Even in an uncontested auction you'd be doing very well to get all these hands right.

 

Another consideration is that if responder shows a three-suiter and we reach 6♣ or 6♥, RHO will be on lead, If anyone has a side-suit singleton, it's likely to be him.

 

Finally, you're not bidding in a vacuum. The more information you exchange, the more likely it is that they find their ruff if there is one.

[gnasher]

The hand is not from my regular partnership, but I realized we don't have good definitions for the highlevel bids either. We would have been better off, since we have a bid over 1♠ for immediately showing a true 3-suiter with shortness in the overcalled suit.

 

But that is beside the point. We want to have good meta-agreements. I think playing 5NT as offering all three suits is a good treatment. 5♠ could then be 1st round control with mainly or only diamonds and a try for grand slam.

 

In a sequence where we have not yet shown a suit, I'm not sure how to play. Say:

 

(4♠)-X-(pass):

4NT = takeout, 2 suits

4NT then 5♠ = 1st round control, grand slam try in partner's chosen strain

4NT then 5NT = choose again, maybe we belong somewhere else

5NT = 3-suited

5♠ = ? Any suggestions in this context?

I think 5♠ should show some two-suiter, to reduce the overloading of 4NT. Maybe:

    5♠ = hearts + a minor, longer hearts

    4NT then 6om = hearts + the minor, shorter hearts

    4NT then 5NT = both minors, longer in the other minor

 

Another problem with these four-level competitive sequences is that they're all different, so it's hard to make consistent agreements for different auctions. I'd like to be playing the same basic structure after

    (4♠)

    (4♠)-dbl

    1♦-(4♠)

    1♦-(4♠)-dbl

    (4♥)

    etc

but it's not easy to make general rules for all of these.

Edited January 5, 2014 by gnasher