Systems on and then what?

[jillybean]

Match points, 15-17 NT 2♣ natural

 

1N (2♣) 2♦ (P)

2♥ (3♣) 3♥

 

How do you play 3♥?

[mikestar13]

My preferred meta rule: when faced with competition above 2 of our suit, 3 of our suit is never invitational; with a good invite bid game, with a bad invite, settle for competing. Where it is possible for partner to have substantial extra, he can go on to game. This needs to be a good bit stronger than the minimum which would accept accept an invite in a non-competitive auction. That is not possible in this specific sequence, as partner would have super-accepted with such a holding.

[aguahombre]

deleted by me.

[jillybean]

Great explanation thanks Mike.

[kenberg]

In addition to Mike's fine comments I add: Assuming that 4♦ was available as a transfer over 2♣, what partner cannot have is six hearts and a gf hand. With five hearts and gf values I would think a double of 3♣ would make some sense, since no one said that you have three hearts. I suppose that there could be an exception to this, but not often I think.

 

My guess is he has six hearts and modest non-invitational values.

 

Anyway, I agree with the general idea that over the three level interference a player with an invitational hand, if he has not yet shown these values, has to just bite the bullet and choose. Bidding 3 of our suit is to play.

[aguahombre]

Responder doesn't necessarily have to take a position on his own. The 2♣ overcall has eliminated Clubs as a strain; so, even if "systems on" includes 4-suit transfers there is only one minor suit in the mix and 2NT is available as Lebensohl.

 

2NT, then a transfer at the 3-level would be the invitational hands with 6 pieces. 2S would be the competitive Diamond bid, and the hands with only five M invitational can still xfer at the two-level then Double if it comes back at the 3-level.

[the_dude]

Adding more support for the above posts - in competition, invitations are the first thing to go. You are always allowed to compete, with an invitation you either suck it up and go, or not, but 3 of our suit 100% to play.

[gszes]

the minority report returns outgunned 20-1 so far so I am going to make my case for

 

invitational. This sequence is not in a vacuum we already have a lot of inferential information.

 

The 1n opener did not have a super accept

 

responder did not use a texas transfer or bid game if not playing that convention

 

responder did not feel their hand was properly distributed to x

 

responder did not feel their hand was appropriate to allow p to compete further in po seat with big fit.

 

That's a TON of information but the most telling by far is that last piece of information. What type of hand

 

can responder have where they were unwilling to allow opener to compete to 3h if they had a large heart

 

fit?????? Surely if opener had say Axx Kxxx Axxx Ax opener would not super accept but be more than

 

happy to bid 3h since the bidding has marked responder with at least some values. Does responder have

 

something like Qx xxxxxxx xx xx? Good luck waiting for that hand to come around again. The only thing

 

that makes sense here is that responder is using 3h as invitational because they fear missing game if opener

 

is "short" in hearts with an otherwise reasonable hand (just unable to super accept).

 

Forcing responder to "bite the bullet" and guess between competing and bidding game makes little to no sense

 

here. "Competitive" is used here in the context of we do not have enough "stuff" to actually invite we are hoping

 

to be close to making our bid.

 

What would a "competing" 3h bid look like xx Axxxxx xxx xx??? surely we would not want to be in 3h unless opener

 

can back into the bidding with 3h (you remember partner right??) Let us see some solid examples of "competitive" hands

 

I can list a whole kit and kaboodle of invitational hands if you want

 

Kx Kxxxxx xxx xx

 

Axx Qxxxxx xx xx

 

xx Axxxxx Kxx xx (though this might have just bid at 4 level immediately)

 

KQx Kxxxxx xx xx (another game hand maybe?)

 

and the list goes on and on and on

 

 

 

 

Meta rules are fine and dandy when opener is very narrowly defined as to trump support but when opener can have

 

2 3 or 4 card trump support those meta rules make little sense because it is openers trump holding that will go the

 

longest way toward determining how "competitive" our hands are:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

 

 

[ggwhiz]

It's too long ago to remember but I read about a similar sequence that a world class pair played and described as "weakly invitational". ie. xxx KQTxx, QTxx, x or some such would fit the bill better than 100% to play.

 

It's not like partner can't pass the decision back to you with dregs as they have already shown a pulse.

[P_Marlowe]

You have X and 3D available to show a inv.+ hand.

 

Most likely 3D should show 6+ hearts, and a game try, x should

show 5 hearts and a willigness to go for blood, i.e. a bal. shape.

if you have a known fit, your enthusiasm for going after blood

is reduced, and if you 6+ you have a fit.

 

As a side note: I dont play system on the given seq., Lebensohl

and neg. X works as good as system on it the given seq., and you have

to play it anyhow, when they overcall higher than 2C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe