Play 5 diamond

[MrAce]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat98h4dakqt86caq&n=skj5ht865d97ck862&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=5dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Team match. Auction is not this of course, i just wanted to make it simple.

 

T1- Lead K ♥ everyone follows.

T2-Small ♥ and RHO plays the A and you ruff

T3-4 AK ♦ and you see W discarding a ♥ on second diamond.

 

What is your plan ? (If you cash club AQ everyone will follow)

 

Enjoy

[gszes]

trick 5 spade to the J here we diverge depending on if it wins or not

 

assuming spade J holds the trick

 

trick 6 ruff a heart

 

trick 7 club A

 

trick 8 club Q

 

trick 9 spade to the K

 

trick 10 club K intending to pitch a spade (it does rho no good to ruff)

 

trick 11 lead a heart scoring trumps on tricks 11 and 12 give up trick 13

 

assuming spade J loses (such is life)

 

we now need rho to hold 4342 distribution because we need to get to dummy 2 more times for trump shortening to work

 

trick 6 win in hand assume club return (a heart return makes your life easier)

 

trick 7 spade to K

 

trick 8 ruff a heart

 

trick 9 cash a spade (if rho ruffs ah well)

 

trick 10 cash 4th spade (if rho ruffs ah well)

 

trick 11 club Q overtake with K

 

trick 12 lead anything from dummy and take tricks 12 and 13

 

 

 

[MrAce]

trick 5 spade to the J here we diverge depending on if it wins or not

 

assuming spade J holds the trick

 

trick 6 ruff a heart

 

trick 7 club A

 

trick 8 club Q

 

trick 9 spade to the K

 

trick 10 club K intending to pitch a spade (it does rho no good to ruff)

 

trick 11 lead a heart scoring trumps on tricks 11 and 12 give up trick 13

 

assuming spade J loses (such is life)

 

we now need rho to hold 4342 distribution because we need to get to dummy 2 more times for trump shortening to work

 

trick 6 win in hand assume club return (a heart return makes your life easier)

 

trick 7 spade to K

 

trick 8 ruff a heart

 

trick 9 cash a spade (if rho ruffs ah well)

 

trick 10 cash 4th spade (if rho ruffs ah well)

 

trick 11 club Q overtake with K

 

trick 12 lead anything from dummy and take tricks 12 and 13

 

 

George, bro, there is a reason why i post this in B/N forum, so that they can try to work it out. These hands i post here are not for adv + players.

 

But since your solution is wrong no harm is done http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif Recheck and you will find a better line.

 

 

 

[kuhchung]

I think I'm going to make it!!

[gszes]

shoot I do so many of these I lost track of where I was sorry btw I have seen people create "spoilers"

 

can anyone show me how to do this so I can use them when it is appropriate????ty

 

 

 

[CSGibson]

shoot I do so many of these I lost track of where I was sorry btw I have seen people create "spoilers"

 

can anyone show me how to do this so I can use them when it is appropriate????ty

 

 

It's simple. I'm going to use spaces between so that it doesn't take, but…

 

 

[ spoiler ] saying something…..[ / spoiler ]

 

 

Oh, and I don't know if the novice/beginner players are better in your part of the world, Timo, but this is way more advanced than I'd expect a typical 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year player to ever get right.

[Antrax]

To spoiler text, do this:

[spoiler]Hidden text goes here[/spoiler]

 

I know this is the N/B but this really looks like a trump coup :(

I can't get over my entry problem if E wins the spade hook and return a spade though. So either I'm overthinking it or this is not a N/B problem.

[Cyberyeti]

♣AQ, ♠A, ♠to K, K♣ pitching spade, ♥ ruff, ♠

[Antrax]

Cyberyeti, that's what I had in mind but what happens if E ruffs in? You lose a heart, a spade and a ruff.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, that's what I had in mind but what happens if E ruffs in? You lose a heart, a spade and a ruff.

 

Ruffs what ? 2nd spade ? 2nd club ?

 

This requires 5-1 spades or 6-1 clubs, and George is going down with his line if that was the case anyway because he played 2 rounds of black suits even after his spade finesse worked.

 

This hand is simple if you are aware of the "shortening your trumps to the same number of cards your RHO holds, when you don't have a trump in dummy to finesse" concept a.k.a Trump Coup. You can combine the lesson by knowing that 5-1 distribution is much less than % 50 spade finesse.

 

Cyber got it right.

 

@Chris : It depends who their mentor is. If you look at the conventions and systems they talk about in B/N forums, i think it is normal to assume that they are aware of this maneuver. . But even if they are not aware, then i thought this is a good opportunity to introduce them. Not necessarily expecting them to solve it.

 

I also tried to make a point on why people focus on fancy bidding conventions part of the game, while they don't know the basic or almost basic maneuvers of card play. Even if we agreed for the sake of the argument that all this conventions they talk and debate makes them great at bidding, what purpose does it serve to bid very well if you are going to go down on contracts like this or the one i posted yesterday ?

 

Even if you disagree that 'trump coup' is something inappropriate for this forum, then i would beg you to agree that there is a huge double standard in N/B forum about bidding and play levels topics.

 

I said it depends on who their teacher is because i spent 18 years of my life making money from teaching bridge. None of my students learnt any convention but stayman, transfers, blackwood, negative doubles their first 1.5 years. But i made damn well sure they know almost all the basic maneuvers of card play. Can you imagine how hard that is ? I could have easily start the session today with Michaels cuebid, tomorrow 2 way check back etc etc, write on board what they mean and all the relays and whatever and easily could have pass the time. Trying and teaching people card play maneuvers is pain in the butt, because it is hard and need a lot of patience and work. As a teacher you have to do homework everyday. I would think it is my fault if one of my students for 2 years went down in this game i posted. I played the final match of Turkish nationals many times, 3 of them was with my students. Yes, i made it to the final match with people that i taught bridge. You may think that the field is weak, but the full Italian team has been playing in Turkish nationals last 3-4 years i guess, you go and ask them where they finished it. Of course i did not mean they are not good enough for our nationals, but tried to tell you that it was not a picnic walk either.

[MrAce]

I know this is the N/B but this really looks like a trump coup :(

I can't get over my entry problem if E wins the spade hook and return a spade though. So either I'm overthinking it or this is not a N/B problem.

 

It depends on how you define the N/B play problems. You can't just put AQxx in dummy and JT9x in hand and ask them how they play it for not losing any tricks when they are talking about control cue bid, michaels cue bid and all.

 

I am not very happy either to post these in B/N forums, i would much rather prefer I/A forums, however i am looking at the things that they discuss over there, i felt like it would be taken as an insult to post there. Here i can at most be blamed for giving too much credit to the followers of this forum.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[Antrax]

I thought you drove trucks?

 

In any case, in my mind it's complex because it appears late in BridgeMaster. It's entirely possible the concept isn't that advanced, since unlike squeezes you can know for sure what the situation is.

[MrAce]

I thought you drove trucks?

 

In any case, in my mind it's complex because it appears late in BridgeMaster. It's entirely possible the concept isn't that advanced, since unlike squeezes you can know for sure what the situation is.

 

Yes i own and drive semi trucks. I said i made money for 18 years teaching bridge, and owning a bridge club but that was in the past. At some point in my life, i decided this is not how i want to spend the rest of my life. Trucking is totally coincidence though, i went to CDL school for the fun of it but once you drive a 75 feet long and 80.000 lb combination vehicle, you do not want to drive anything else. Each and everytime at -13 F you put chains on those wheels, which takes about 2 hours, and then every 15 minutes they got loose and u have to tighten em up, you promise yourself that this is your last trip and you will quit it, but each and every time something in me pulls right back into it. Kind of addiction i guess.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[Cyberyeti]

The only advanced point is that you need to cash the high spade from hand before going to dummy, otherwise if the hand with the trumps has two spades and two hearts, he pitches a spade when you ruff the third heart.

[gszes]

this is a test nothing useful here

does this really work?

[gszes]

To spoiler text, do this:

 

Hidden text goes here

 

 

I know this is the N/B but this really looks like a trump coup :(

I can't get over my entry problem if E wins the spade hook and return a spade though. So either I'm overthinking it or this is not a N/B problem.

TYTY for good explicit instructions on how to make spoiler work:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[gszes]

 

♣AQ, ♠A, ♠to K, K♣ pitching spade, ♥ ruff, ♠

 

this is indeed a superior LOP because it not only takes advantage of the trump shortening technique

 

but also recognizes that we have all of the spade spots except for the Q (I failed to note that). This lop

 

works even if rho ruffs the third round of clubs because declarer can overruff pull the last trump and lose only

 

one more trick to the spade Q.

 

 

 

 

[MrAce]

. This lop

 

works even if rho ruffs the third round of clubs because declarer can overruff pull the last trump and lose only

 

one more trick to the spade Q.

 

Yes, that's true. and i did not make up this hand, all the hands i posted here are from BBO team matches that i kibitzed.

 

 

 

[GreenMan]

The only advanced point is that you need to cash the high spade from hand before going to dummy, otherwise if the hand with the trumps has two spades and two hearts, he pitches a spade when you ruff the third heart.

 

Good point, my solution was the same as yours except I didn't see this. Thanks.

[Wackojack]

Cyber’s description of the solution: “♣AQ, ♠A, ♠to K, K♣ pitching spade, ♥ ruff, ♠” This is a thing of beauty in its mathematical simplicity and maybe needs no explanation in the I/A forum. Nevertheless, I believe that only the very bright B/I’s will really understand it enough to be able to reproduce a similar play on another occasion. In this respect it is pitched too high. Just as E=mc2 needs some explanation so does this play. So this is how I think B/I’s should approach this problem in order to get most benefit:

 

1. There are 11 tricks off the top if diamonds behave. That is they break 3-2 or the Jack comes down in 1. This is very good odds.

 

2. East appears to have ♥Ax so West appears to be leading from ♥KQJxxx.

 

3. There is no reason not to draw trumps immediately.

 

4. When East turns up with ♦J9xx, it looks like I have a diamond loser and so I need to find a trick elsewhere.

 

5. If we try a spade finesse in either direction we go down if we get it wrong.

 

6. Are there squeeze possibilities? B/I’s may know that you have to rectify the count for most squeezes. Also for the squeeze to work regardless of who has the Q♠ it has to be an automatic double squeeze. This does not look possible since you will be squeezing dummy when you play out the diamonds.

 

7. Hold on a moment! If we can manage to use dummy to score the ♦1086 by ruffing losers in dummy we have 11 tricks. Let us see. We have already ruffed 1 heart in hand and we have the K♠ entry to ruff another in hand. That leaves only the 10♦ to score to make the contract. We can engineer this if we are prepared to lose a spade and have ♦Q10 as our last cards.

 

8. So ♣AQ. Now A♠ first or small to K♠? It looks kinda wrong to play A♠ first. (Aren’t we taught that if we have top honours in each hand to lead away?) Let us see what happens if we lead the 8♠ to dummy’s K. K♣ discarding 9♠; then 8♥ ruff in hand with 8♦. However, say we see East discard a 2rd spade on this card. Then when we play a spade back to the ace in our hand and play a 3rd spade East ruffs in. We have now lost 2 tricks and still have a spade loser . Unlucky? Yes but if we play A♠ first and then to K♠ we still make if East started with 3 spades.

 

9. (Point made by gszes) This line of play works even if East ruffs the third round of clubs because declarer can over ruff pull the last trump and lose only one more trick to the spade Q.

 

10. Can this fail? It looks like East must have at least 2 clubs (see above) and at least 2 spades. This has to be overwhelmingly likely if we can trust our inferential logic that East only started with 2 hearts. So this line is much better than guessing where the Q♠ is.

 

11. So let’s do it this way.

 

We have all seen weak players obsessively ruff in their long trump suit for no good reason other than it feels good to do so, only to find that they eventually go down because they have lost trump control. So interestingly, these players may stumble on this winning line of play here. Change the hand a bit giving declarer ♦AKJ9xx and just ♣Ax and give dummy the Q♣ and this may be fertile ground for a David Bird article.

 

Please correct me if my analysis has been faulty or sloppy. I did this analysis partly because my declarer play is not as good as it should be and this was a good exercise. Ding Dong merrily.

[MrAce]

Wackojack, it is probably my fault that i failed to mention that opponents were silent during bidding. W holding KQJxxx ♥ E holding Ax is unlikely. Besides with Ax ♥ E would have played A on pd's K and return the suit.

 

Other than that you made a great analysis imo.

[Zelandakh]

The lesson on this hand is a simple but powerful one that is usually not taught to beginners. If trumps misbehave, or you fear that this might be the case, it is often a matter of good technique to shorten the trumps in the long hand. Where this technique becomes advanced and difficult to see is when the shortening process is begun before you find out about the bad trump break. In this respect I feel that Wackojack's point #3 is not a good one. This point should really read "We have good chances if diamonds split 3-2; how does it look if they are 4-1". Then you can analyse that there are enough entries to complete the shortening process and this is the reason why it is safe to draw trumps immediately.

 

In any case, trump shortening plays form a rather large and important set of chapters in a typical I/A book on declarer play. I do not generally consider them to be N/B but there is certainly no harm in exposing players to these "wonders" because it shows how magical the card play side of the game can be and will certainly insire some to look further. For an N/B version, how about this (bad) translation from a German bridge book: "Bad splits? Shorten trumps quick!" Cheesey perhaps but probably considerably more useful than N/B stalwarts such as "Cover an honour with an honour", "Don't finesse partner" and "Third hand high".

[nige1]

Thank you, Mr Ace. Great problem. At the table, I'm afraid I'd get it wrong :(