Pity Forcing Pass is seldom allowed

[hrothgar]

Hi Claus

 

I have a pretty good grasp of Symmetric Relay, however, I really wouldn't feel comfortable trying to play a strong pass variant based on the hands that you provided. Even within a well defined system, there can be some radical differences of opinion regarding basic sequences.

 

For example, one relay school uses a 2D bid as a single suited junction.

Any 6322/6331/7321 hand will initially be worked through a 2D response.

There is a second school that prefers to immediately zoom with a bid of 2S+ to show the single suited hand.

 

Just looking at that brief set of notes, I have no way to understand how this will be treated.

 

If we start looking at more complex topics such as relay breaks life gets even more complicated. For example,

suppose that RR has just rebid 2NT to show some 5332 hand pattern. What does R's 3C response mean?

Some players treat this as asking for RR's doubleton. Other players use 3C to ask for RR's lowest stopper, exploring for 3NT.

 

A final example, The_Hog and I were playing a week ago and the following undiscussed auction came up:

 

1H* - (P) - 2S* - (3H)

X

 

1H shows 4+ Spades, might have a longer suit

2S shows precisely 3 spade

 

What does opener's double show?

Is it takeout or penalty?

 

There are plenty of other examples related to relay breaks, auction termination, ... where lots of explicit discussion is required. In short, summary files are a great starting point, but any type of scientific system requires a lot more detail to make sure that you and your partner are one the same wavelength.

[csdenmark]

Hi Richard

 

I am quite aware of your love to Moscito Club System and realy's too. In my opinion rarely played systems must be played in a simple way easy to learn and easy to handle. Else they are not played at all. Therefore the widespread popularity of Lambda in Poland. There the natural version is played and only very few uses Lambda Complex(Super Lambda).

 

I think the polish openings are excellent for a natural continuation. 4-5 or 5-5 openings really don't need much more. Maybe a Splinter raise. Other openings are of course therefore defined as 1-suiters or semi-balanced.

 

Relay or not - the real problem in pass-systems seems to be the weak opening(1D=polish, 1H=Moscito). There I would have preferred something like Blakset 2S opening. But that's another system and therefore not relevant.

 

I have no intensions commenting your examples. They will be opened differently in different systems. If you want a comment on anything - please construct an example using the features of any of the uploaded systems I have committed to accept invitation for. But basically I don't like doubles at all. They are subject to all too many unsolid misunderstandings. I prefere conventions.

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark ;)

[the hog]

Ok a last post on this.

Playing Polish Club - one of your posted systems

 

1C 1Major 2D is odwrotka (19+ 3+ card support)

I know of at least 3 ways to play the responses. Which do you suggest without any prior discussion? Make sure you get it right!

[csdenmark]

Hi Ron!

 

To this:

Ok a last post on this.

Playing Polish Club - one of your posted systems

 

1C 1Major 2D is odwrotka (19+ 3+ card support)

I know of at least 3 ways to play the responses. Which do you suggest without any prior discussion? Make sure you get it right!

 

 

Balicki/Zmudzinski:

1C=Always:C:2+cd

*12-15,bal

*12-18,4414,D=short

*15-18,nat clubs

*19+,any

 

 

1C-1M=7+HcP,4+cd(Walsh-continuation)

 

1C-1M-2D=Art ask for holdings of MAJOR suit by responder(steps) - own suit=strong clubs

1st – 4cd,weak hand

2nd – 5cd,weak hand

3rd – 4cd,strong hand

4th – 5cd,strong hand

5th – 6cd,weak hand

6th – 6cd,strong hand

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark :)

[the hog]

1C-1M-2D=Art ask for holdings of MAJOR suit by responder(steps) - own suit=strong clubs

1st – 4cd,weak hand

2nd – 5cd,weak hand

3rd – 4cd,strong hand

4th – 5cd,strong hand

5th – 6cd,weak hand

6th – 6cd,strong hand

 

And that is precisely the problem. Now what? Are new suits natural, are they cues, is the step a relay, what? How do we develop the auction - are we using Polish Slam Asking Bids, do we use the 4D End Signal, are we using 3041 or 1430 RKCB? How can you possibly know without prior discussion?

 

You see it is not so easy as you think. Sure you might know the opening bids and immediate responses, but if that is it you will not get very far. I get no enjoyment from systemic misunderstandings and I doubt my opponents do either.

 

Incidentally the above is a simplified method and is not the method that

Balicki-Zmudzinski played when I played them last. They use a relay structure over odwrotka and can work out exact shape.

[csdenmark]

Sorry Ron!

 

I don't know how BZ played last you played - I have never had that great honour. What I refer to is the information which can be extracted from BZ convention card used for Bermuda Bowls 2001 and other high level champion competitions.

 

With your big knowledge of BZ's methods I don't think it is right to ask whether polish standard methods for slam are used and whether 0314 or 1430. You simply ought to know.

 

They use a special method after relay sequences or if not enough space available. They use 1430. You will also be able to see they have a very relaxed way for relay's. They don't need hammer hand-patterns out where they dont need them. Therefore BZ has a light relay structure. It is for practical use and not a desk-top system. Over 2C opening you will see a deep relay structure.

 

Please note! I am not the composer of BZ-system. I have pictured it - I am a photographer and only that!

 

From these WEB-sites you will be able to find all information:

 

http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/cs.msnw

Now I think this thread ought to return to pass-systems.

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark :)