Pity Forcing Pass is seldom allowed

[VJ]

Puzzling to me that strong club is authorized whilst forcing pass is about always forbidden everywhere.  Fine that is should be reserved to competition, but it is merely a logical extension of strong club.  acbl seems very frigid to me.  Protect and encourage newcomers: perfect!  be very strict about ethics: excellent!  but let's be open...

[inquiry]

I had to give up ROMEX so many years ago I hate to think about it (70's). The ACBL-sanctioned club I played at allowed it (it was an anything goes, even forcing pass). But when playing in sectionals and regionals it was disallowed. So I even stopped playing it at the local club. Why? Because after fine tuning the weapon in "practice" at the local club, I couldn't use it at tournments and I ended up in auctions at tournments I hadn't practiced.

 

I have always been for let anything in approach. However, as I have aged, I have come to at least appreciate the need for not letting complicated and unknown conventions be thrown at people in a highly competitive situations. People who never have heard of multi-2D for instance, may feel cheated almost the first time they run into the bid if they didn't appreciate all the possible hands opener could hold, etc. What makes playing these things acceptible is familarity. We are all familar with two suited bids (michaels, unusual 2NT), so we have all adopted ways to deal with them (say unusual versus unusual). If more conventions/systems were allowed and some people played them so people could be familiar to playing against them, then these too would be demystified. After playing against multi-2D for a while on-line, I have adopted it, for instance.  

[csdenmark]

I like to see some interested to play strong pass systems. On BBO we are a few enjoying the 2 polish systems Lambda and Beznazwy(No Name). We have much fun doing so and try to encourage others. VJ and Inquiry are welcome too of course.

 

The systems can be carried out simple as we do but are  created as relay systems. They are both very simple systems you will be able to handle very quick.

 

http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/lambda.msnw

 

http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/beznazwy.msnw

 

Hope soon to meet you as partner or opponent!

 

Claus - csdenmark  :)

[the hog]

I agree that this is a shame. We can play it in 14 board matches, provided that it is submitted in advance and provided that you are playing a team in the top 1/3 of the field. Unfortunately even these allowances mean that you don't get to play a FP system often enough to make it worthwhile. Opponent's reactions differed; some like Claus thought it was a lot of fun, others were openly hostile. One of the most fun matches we had was when we played another forcing pass team - auctions at the table did not resemble anything that you are ever likely to see.

 

The systems Claus mentions have been around for quite a while. Definitely also worth a look are Suspensor - a modern version of No Name, T-Rex which is a New Zealand medium pass system, and my all time old favourite - Weak Opening Relay which is the original Marston - Burgess strong pass system. Maybe we can organise a game sometime; I am certain Richard would welcome the opportunity

[inquiry]

I like to see some interested to play strong pass systems. On BBO we are a few enjoying the 2 polish systems Lambda and Beznazwy(No Name). We have much fun doing so and try to encourage others. VJ and Inquiry are welcome too of course.

 

The systems can be carried out simple as we do but are  created as relay systems. They are both very simple systems you will be able to handle very quick.

 

http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/lambda.msnw

 

http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/beznazwy.msnw

 

Hope soon to meet you as partner or opponent!

 

Claus - csdenmark  :)

 

Thanks for the invite Claus. I would indeed like to play around with forcing pass system...against opponents willing to play against it of course. And I certainly am really to play against anyone playing it. I will have to go read about llamda, but I may be to old to learn the relay version...

 

Ben

[VJ]

Thanks for the invitation too, Claus.  I designed my own out of the Indian Veejay relay precision club, but I am interested in learning and probably playing those Polish systems.  I am on my way to Moldavia right now for 10 days, but I will look into this on my return.  Keep in touch.

 

By the way Ben, we are never too old: bridge is making you younger  :)

 

John

[VJ]

Claus,

I had a brief look at Lambda and Beznazwy.

1.1. I found the openings interesting but with it seems to me obvious improvements to be easily added.

1.2. I also did not find what to do with a balanced hand 8-12 and 2-3 in majors, unless that is covered by 1C???

2. to invest in the system, you need a thorough description (in English).  Is that available?

3. At first look, my forcing pass VJ system is much better, but I am ready to make sacrifices to gain commonality :)

 

Thanks for your contribution,

 

John

[Rado]

Hi friends,

Just include me in the list when organising the play with forsing pass at the table. Lambda, Beznazwy and Rozkladowy were my favourites in the years 1985-1989.:-)

Rado

[csdenmark]

Hi John(VJ)

 

I would really enjoy to be able to answer your question. Sorry I am not in a position to do so. Rado is my very honoured Delphi for such!

 

I can tell you a bit of how we play the simple version om Lambda:

 

1C-open: Semi-balanced, 8-12. This means all hands not qualifying for any other openings and has no single/void.

 

This is a bit different in Beznazwy due to the fact openings of majors 1H/1S is <3cd or 6+cd. In reality this often means you are holding an opening hand in other Major.

 

I think you know quite well how difficult it is to obtain information of these type of systems and due to ban of such new literature is not published. I have tried to find books but the only one I have, and it is in english, is: "Introduction to weak opening systems - Regres system". I bought it by Paul Laving in Australia. As I remember it was the last copy on stock, maybe you will be able to find something by Futile Will who is specialized in out of print books.

 

I have asked Hrotgar(Richard Willey) about Moscito's pass-version, the origin by Paul Marston. He was unable to help.

 

I am only a user much enjoying the fun. I try play those 2 systems acc. to the descriptions you have seen. Rest is guessing and natural bidding. - Makes no problem at all. I think this is for everyone to participate and that's important to me. I have asked Misho to help me creating a relay structure and in the near future I think and hope a simple solution for that will turn up as an option. There is a relay - next bid is always a relay for clarification. The openings which needs to be clarified are of course forcing.

 

If you want a well defined relay-pass-system, Regres is the solution I think. I think it is much too complicated for a rarely played system but I have 2 names for you as partners for that system.

 

It is a problem on internet you cannot translate the polish sites via Alta Vista. Here is a link to a site where you will be able to translate phrases of polish text into english: http://www.poltran.com/pl.php4 .

 

I hope very much this was a help - please remember it is not me who is the resource person.

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark  :)

 

[Rado]

Hi John (BJ),

 

with 2-3 in majors the correct opening is:

 

in lambda: 1Cl

in Beznazwy: 1 in shorter Major, since there 1M opening shows 0-2 or 6+ cards in the Major bid.

in Rozkladowy : 1Cl

 

I've found somewhere (unfortunately cannot remmeber the internet site) one pdf file with brief descriptions of 20 different forsing pass systems from all over the world. If somebody is interested I may send the PDF file (which fortunately saved on my PC LOL) by e-mail.

best regards, Rado

[csdenmark]

The above mentioned file by Rado has now been uploaded here:    

 

http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/Document...forcingpass.pdf

 

Some may have problems accessing the uploaded files. You overcome this problem by changing language into "english US" here: http://groups.msn.com/changelanguage.msnw.

 

The explanation is you are redirected to a Microsoft Server specifically directed for your country. If access is denied for you most probably you need to sign in to NET-passport using this link: http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/join

 

 

 

I am looking for partners: http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/cs.msnw

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark   :)  

[DrTodd13]

I play pretty much standard Tresboof forcing pass system with a couple people on OKB and BBO. I also play a modified Tresboof with symmetric relays with my lunch time partner and we periodically play on okb and BBO. Anybody wanting to learn our system send me e-mail and we'll play on BBO.

 

Todd

[luis]

Of course you can count me in to play a forcing pass system or to play against a forcing pass system.

I find forcing pass systems nice, effective and inofensive to the opps. I know they are banned just because it is against the "industry" of SAYC.

I can play Regres, Lambda or another system if I can read the notes.

I also like to play special defenses agains forcing pass systems, creating very curious situations at the table.

Like the "pass" overcall and the fert-on-pass and many other interesting treatments. A lot of fun....

 

Luis

[the hog]

I also like to play special defenses agains forcing pass systems, creating very curious situations at the table.

Like the "pass" overcall and the fert-on-pass and many other interesting treatments. A lot of fun....

 

One fairly common method here was the "counterfert". 1NT over the fert showed 0-10 any

[mishovnbg]

Count me for Lambda, i played it at national team finals 15 years ago ::)

Misho

[csdenmark]

Nice to read about all those to count for play of forcing pass-systems. Really none of the honoured contrebutors here have ever responded to my excessive adverticing. - Others occasionally do so - but none of those who are informing they enjoy playing such systems responds to me and I am never informed of they are playing such and I have never seen.

 

Yours Claus -csdenmark :)

[bearmum]

I guess FP systems are OK IF (and ONLY IF) the opps have had a chance as a pair to discuss HOW to deal with them :-

I agree that two pairs playing FP would have some interesting auctions though ;D

I agree that this is a shame. We can play it in 14 board matches, provided that it is submitted in advance and provided that you are playing a team in the top 1/3 of the field. Unfortunately even these allowances mean that you don't get to play a FP system often enough to make it worthwhile. Opponent's reactions differed; some like Claus thought it was a lot of fun, others were openly hostile. One of the most fun matches we had was when we played another forcing pass team - auctions at the table did not resemble anything that you are ever likely to see.

 

The systems Claus mentions have been around for quite a while. Definitely also worth a look are Suspensor - a modern version of No Name, T-Rex which is a New Zealand medium pass system, and my all time old favourite - Weak Opening Relay which is the original Marston - Burgess strong pass system. Maybe we can organise a game sometime; I am certain Richard would welcome the opportunity

[luis]

Nice to read about all those to count for play of forcing pass-systems. Really none of the honoured contrebutors here have ever responded to my excessive adverticing. - Others occasionally do so - but none of those who are informing they enjoy playing such systems responds to me and I am never informed of they are playing such and I have never seen.

 

Claus,

 

I think you can't just "agree" to play Lambda with somebody and pretend to do it without a good previous talk and many agreements and understandings.

Two players playing the same system doesn't make a partnership.

[csdenmark]

No luis - completely wrong!

 

I have no problems playing for the first time with anybody! Some like to play that as standard classic - I don't.

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark :)

[DrTodd13]

I was eager to learn a forcing pass system and one of the only reasons

I learned Tresboof was that it had a reasonably complete set of

system notes. I have some files describing the opening bids for

lambda, regress, etc. but you can't sit down and play based on that

level of understanding.

 

If it were up to me, I'd legalize FP and if people started to get bad

results against it then they would learn how to defend against it.

If FP turns out to be superior but little old ladies won't stray from

natural bidding then the LOLs will just have to lose. I know clubs

don't want to lose membership so I think that there needs to be

a dumbed down social section (with reduced masterpoint awards)

and an anything goes section.

[csdenmark]

No Todd - completely wrong

 

To play pass systems is neither more complicated nor more brave than playing club or diamond systems.

 

Oh perhaps - you need to be a bit more alert when partner opens with a PASS. Only opps. are alerted - yourself need to be awake and remember.

 

I simply don't understand why you may think partners are able to play less well defined systems(standard classic) with no really agreements but playing acc. to more restrict rules cannot be done in this way. This simply makes no sense to me. Twisting arguments the other way around I think would be right. The better the language is the better and more easily you understand the message. - That's what bridge is about.

 

Bridge has 3 phases:

 

• Offensive
  
• Interference handles
  
• Defensive
  

The characteristica for a system is Offensive - but that is the minor part of bridge. With no system you will be able to play champion-bridge from day one with a new partner. In Vugraph we see well established partnerships often make silly judgements causing misunderstandings as well.

 

Todd you asked me yesterday to play Tresboof - very well. I declined because I dont know it. I play pass-systems rather little - no partners. I don't like deep relay's and therefore I don't invest much time in that.

 

Anytime, with no agreements, I will be ready to play:

 

• Lambda
  
• Beznazwy
  
• Moscito
  

with anybody in a simple/natural way. Yesterday I asked you too - but you didn't answer me. I understood the message of your silence - but bad manners it is. I am getting used to that way of poor habits from several persons.

 

I like to inform those interested that we right now are working very hard - in Denmark and in Poland - to have one of the modern and serious polish pass systems(SUSPENSOR) translated into english so it will possible for everybody to play that system. I hope very much it will be the true version of Balicki/Zmudzinski - used in high level championchip play. I am not sure we will succeed in that - and I need to rely on those contacts we will be able to get in Poland. Anyhow I intend to create files for that system in full relay version - and by that time I will be ready to play that system acc. to the correct definitions inclusive relay's.

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark ;)

[DrTodd13]

Hi Claus,

 

What did I say to deserve being called "completely wrong?" I said I

wasn't able to play a system given a half page description of that

system. I don't know many people that could do that and even

fewer that would enjoy it. In my younger days when I had more

time I was a system fanatic and I'm not the worst bridge player

on the planet so I don't think it is fair to be called completely wrong.

 

I am not opposed to learning and playing SUSPENSOR or

something like that with you. I didn't see your message that you

sent to me or I would have responded. People are often away from

their keyboards or have their computers crash. If you don't like the

relays in Tresboof that is fine so please send me SUSPENSOR once

it is translated.

 

Todd

[the hog]

Claus I agree with Luis. My system notes run to 180 pages. If you wanted to play the full Meckwell precision, this runs to 800 pages and anyway is not available, I believe. How can you possibly understand the naunces of auctions with a 1/2 page summary?

[csdenmark]

Dear Ron!

 

What's the problem. About a month ago you were so kind to provide me this document:

 

Strong Pass – Marston-Burgess circa 1985

 

 

 

P

13+ any

 

1C

8-12, 4+H, may be canape

 

1D

8-12, 4+S. Not 4H

 

1H

0-7 or a flat 8

 

1S

8-12 Both ms

 

1NT

9-12, flat, no M

 

2C/D

8-12 no 4M

 

2H/S/NT

RCO 2 suiters 8-12

 

 

 

 

 

 

Responses

 

 

 

To Pass

 

 

 

1C 0-7 any. Now 1D = 19+ any

 

1D 13+ reverse relay

 

1H 8-11 4+H

 

1S 8-11 4+S not H

 

1NT 8-11 flat no M

 

2C/D 8-11, 6 card suit

 

2H/S/NT 8-11 rco 2 bids

 

 

 

To 1C

 

1D Inv relay

 

1H GF relay

 

Rest nat nf

 

 

 

To 1D

 

1H Inv relay

 

1S GF relay

 

Rest nat nf

 

 

 

To 1H

 

Pass Nothing to say – syas Nothing about S

 

1S Relay 18+ Now 1NT = min, rest = natural 5-7

 

1NT 16-18

 

2C Transfer to H 12-15

 

2D Transfer to S 12-15

 

2H/S 4 in that suit with a long minor, 12-15

 

2NT 12-15 ms

 

 

 

To 1S

 

1NT Relay

 

Rest natural nf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To 1NT

 

2C Relay

 

2D/H Transfers

 

2S Inv raise

 

2NT Pick a minor

 

3? Pre empt

 

 

 

To 2C

 

2D Relay

 

Rest inv natural

 

 

 

To 2D

 

2H Relay

 

Rest inv Except for 3C which is a transfer to H!!!! NB

 

 

 

 

 

After relay responses

 

Use symmetric relay if desired, else you can bid naturally.

 

After an invitational relay, 1 step shows a min. Rest are natural and max.

 

On that basis I have created files for handling. The files are available to anybody interested via my web-sites. No problem with that.

 

I have no intensions trying to re-invent systems - I try to handle as near as possible to origin. Therefore I prefer true versions. Such are rather simple and acc. to rule of 80/20. Others I play those systems with are of a similar opinion.

 

It is NOT necessary with very complex structures like those in the system for T-Rex I received from you or those I have seen for Tresboof. Precision is in several WEI-approved versions too. CC Wei has published a book with a simplified version. Here I prefer the true championversion Belladonna/Garozzo incl. 3D-Sharif.

 

I certainly still hope I will have the full system notes we have talked about for Moscito.

 

Regarding Meckwell - some tells about the 800 pages you refer to some tells such a document is not published - simply because it don't exist's. Looks more like a myth. If you like to play Meckwell acc. to the Bermuda Bowl version - I will be ready any time.

 

I don't need to discuss before play - actually I just need switching my files for another system - but please give me 10 seconds for that!

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark ;)

[csdenmark]

Hi Todd

 

I didn't see your message that you

sent to me or I would have responded. People are often away from

their keyboards or have their computers crash

I am delighted to see you don't feel comfortable with my accusation to you and I don't like to make such statements either. But I really think I am justified. You are not the first one and not the second one and and not the third one......... who have done so. Mostly it has been calls from incognito's claiming to be an expert.

 

After the ability to display links as links on BBO I no longer receive such calls - people are now informed that a partnership with me must be based on applying to code of conduct.

 

Todd you responded to my adverticing. - Thank you for that! - You asked me to play bridge and I think I am right to assume you therefore have no intensions rushing away from your computer. Anything can happen of course - but normally my partners then make a short notice - lacking the eye-contact - that conversation has to be postponed or ended.

 

I have some files describing the opening bids for

lambda, regress, etc. but you can't sit down and play based on that

level of understanding.

Like anybody else you have an option to look into the files I have uploaded to WEB and to download the desk-top versions too. As you responded to my adverticing incl. display of this link: http://groups.msn.com/bridgeFILES/cs.msnw the information of that was available to you.

 

I think I know the file you refer to for opening bids - it is uploaded too. But using the files there is no really point in long theoretical discussions. Just take a chance - see what may come - and then we will be ready for sharing our experience from that!

 

When I jump into a new partner - that's the basis for start of partnerships playing Precision - Roman Club - Polish Club etc. I simply don't see the need for other kind of agreements just because the system is a bit different. That is the reason for my statement "completely wrong".

 

Yours Claus - csdenmark ;)