Your turn

[MrAce]

Hands fit perfectly.

[hv=pc=n&s=sa86432ha92dq74c5&n=st7h7dakj965ckj43]133|200[/hv]

Is there a game with these hands?

 

There is not ? What's so bad about the hand you contructed in 4 spades? 3-2 spades is what you need most of the time ? You may conveniently lead spade from KJx Kxx KQx Qxx QJx etc etc trump holdings or you may construct 3-2 spades and the guys who holds 2♠ will also have a stiff ♦ and would only compete to 2 level...I never said this will always be a cold game but since when are we bidding only cold games at teams ?

 

@ Mike : I did not suggest double. I was kibitzing and thought 2♠ was gross underbid of the hand. reason i posted is i really wanted to know what was the best bid. I admit i would go with DBL if i was S. I would never blame anyone for not reaching to slam with NS hands, as i would not either but i thought at teams any decent pair should easily reach game, regardless of it makes or not.

 

I think there is a fighting chance that they can get to slam over 2♠ by south..

 

Interesting, i totally disagree, respectfully of course, but we are way too far from each other in opinions regarding NS hands that i don't even know how to debate this. I would bid 2♠ with KQxxxx xxx Jxx x or similar weak hands is all i can say, so you know why i think 2♠ is bizzarre bid to me. 2 Aces ? 6 card suit ? Qxx in pd's first suit which is 4+ card most of the time, and a side stiff ? No way i am bidding 2♠

 

An immediate 2♠ would not have been WJS?

 

No, and i dunno what they play 2♠ in competition tbh. I would think they play it something complicated and nothing to do with spades, but don;t take my word on it, i am just guessing.

[the hog]

Obviously getting to 6♦ is a huge result.

 

North here though doesn't have a pass over 2♥ and doesn't have a pass over 2♠.

 

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about. I agree with Wayne's post.

[MrAce]

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about. I agree with Wayne's post.

 

Yup, our senior wc N player is not as good as Wayne but he has been around for a while. Won couple of world wide events too.

[dake50]

Recurring problem that is much easier with intermediate js (8-11). -- kenrexford

 

*** Yes, put a bottom on the 6xS hands. Then this becomes a minimum

for 1S then 2S rebid - promoting Q in partner's suit + 2xA.

[kenrexford]

Recurring problem that is much easier with intermediate js (8-11). -- kenrexford

 

*** Yes, put a bottom on the 6xS hands. Then this becomes a minimum

for 1S then 2S rebid - promoting Q in partner's suit + 2xA.

 

Yes -- you could do it either way. WJS allows 1♠...2♠ to show the 8-11, or immediate 1minor-2MAJOR as 8-11 also works. The upside to the direct intermediate rather than the WJS and then inferential extras is that you end up better placed in some sequences, but either works OK.

[the hog]

Yup, our senior wc N player is not as good as Wayne but he has been around for a while. Won couple of world wide events too.

 

Even someone who has been around for a while can make a stupid bid, or pass as in this situation.

[LH2650]

I do not play Good/Bad 2 Notrump, but is this the place for it? Presumably North could show a minimum hand with 6 diamonds. Would this help South in his evaluation?

[MrAce]

Even someone who has been around for a while can make a stupid bid, or pass as in this situation.

 

Yes but you have been saying this for years now and you have been told so many times by a lot of top players in this forum that it may actually be you, who is wrong. But you tend to believe, each and every time a very good player does not bid like you, made a stupid bid. You even called names to another top player here in forums, the guy won a lot of nationals and then the US trials and almost won the BB a little after that. You posted in this topic because you wanted to continue your drama with Kenrexford which started in an other recent topic.

 

You conveniently stay away from all declarer play and defense topics, because you know pimpin ain't easy in those topics. But you can jump in and call names or say nasty things to Rainer or others in a bidding topic. As Justin said once, it is almost impossible to prove someone wrong when it comes to bidding.

 

 

I would have bid 3♦ myself with N hand if i was N. But i do not think pass is stupid at all. It all depends on what pd would think of 3♦ bid. Perhaps JEC would expect much more than that and that's why Benito did not bid 3♦, or maybe.... simply he did not think this hand worth 3♦. Idk.

 

And that's also why i wrote earlier in this topic, that being so shy or conservative in bidding can hit you in multiple ways, even when you are not the one who is making a bid. Because it does not matter what your pd think is right, he will tend to make calls what you think of it. After all you will be the one who is receiving the info and making something out of it. I am not saying this was the case, but i am guessing, it may as well be.

[the hog]

"You posted in this topic because you wanted to continue your drama with Kenrexford which started in an other recent topic."

Do I? Most interesting.

"You conveniently stay away from all declarer play and defense topics, because you know pimpin ain't easy in those topics."

News to me. But why call yourself a pimp? Low self esteem?

[benlessard]

I really hate north pass over 2H. I would either make a support double if available, if the double show extras I would just bid 2S. 3D is also better than pass but KT is more than enough to raise. Of course when south bid 2S (X is just better) north has a super-duper easy raise to 3S.

 

The way the hand was bid tell me it should have been posted in I/A forum.

[MrAce]

"You conveniently stay away from all declarer play and defense topics, because you know pimpin ain't easy in those topics."

News to me. But why call yourself a pimp? Low self esteem?

 

Re read, you may eventually understand what i meant http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif But i strongly doubt it http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

 

 

I do not play Good/Bad 2 Notrump, but is this the place for it? Presumably North could show a minimum hand with 6 diamonds. Would this help South in his evaluation?

 

Yes, if N had a way of separating good and bad 3♦ bids, this would improve S hand by a lot. I guess this was not available though.

 

 

The way the hand was bid tell me it should have been posted in I/A forum.

 

 

Why do you say that ? Is it because every bid in this auction was obviously misbid ? And would be a problem only for I/A players but not experts ?

 

Lets see.... Andy says N should bid 3♦ he is worldn class player up to BBO, at least an expert to most of us, Mike is world class player and at least an expert to most of us, and he says 3♦ is not as clear to him, Benito Garozzo thinks his hand not worth 3♦, me and some other BBF members think 2♠ by S was bad bid while some others think it is reasonable. Another one suggested a pass, if it was MP. Ohh and also, NS are expert players, it is very normal to seek the opinions of their colleagues, no ?

[ggwhiz]

I found this hand to be interesting and also would not have passed with the north hand but that's a complete left turn from the original post.

 

Sure 6♦ is a huge result but I can imagine that the pass of 2♥ by north should actually improve the chances of getting there. Of course parking it in 2♠ sucks but I posted earlier that after 2♥

 

double - 2♠

3♦ - 3♥ should give you a chance.

 

Without knowing how the other pair did it we'll never know but I can't see it after an immediate 3♦ bid. Anyone have a guess as to how you might at least sniff the slam now?

[MrAce]

 

 

Without knowing how the other pair did it we'll never know but I can't see it after an immediate 3♦ bid. Anyone have a guess as to how you might at least sniff the slam now?

 

I will try to find it for you

 

 

 

[MrAce]

[hv=d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1d1h2hp3dp3hd3sp4dp4hp4sp4np5sp6dppp]133|100[/hv]

 

1♦ = 1+ diamond 11/15

 

 

2♥ = either 6+ spade NF or 5+ spade inv +

 

 

I don't see any other alert in the bidding. your guess is as good as mine for the rest of the auction.

 

EW hands are

 

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sqj5hq654dt8ct872&e=s97hkjt83d32cakq9]266|100[/hv]

[Vampyr]

An immediate 2♠ would not have been WJS? What would it have been then, please not a strong jump shift in competition. :( NS might deserve their bad result just for playing such a silly method... :)

 

I think that fit is a lot more common.

 

Why do you say that ? Is it because every bid in this auction was obviously misbid ? And would be a problem only for I/A players but not experts ?

 

It has been said many times that the expert forum is for expert topics, not to get the opinions of experts, who post their thoughts in the other forums as well.

[benlessard]

Is it because every bid in this auction was obviously misbid ?

 

Not all of them but most of them.

 

1- Pass instead of 2S/3D/X not competing with a stiff in opps suit is just wrong.

 

2- ...2S instead of double. Wrong on suit quality wrong on the values.

 

3- The final pass ... yuck..

 

Three major mistakes in one hand its not something you should see at expert level.

[MrAce]

Not all of them but most of them.

 

1- Pass instead of 2S/3D/X not competing with a stiff in opps suit is just wrong.

 

2- ...2S instead of double. Wrong on suit quality wrong on the values.

 

3- The final pass ... yuck..

 

Three major mistakes in one hand its not something you should see at expert level.

 

 

LOL

[rhm]

It has been said many times that the expert forum is for expert topics, not to get the opinions of experts, who post their thoughts in the other forums as well.

What counts as an expert topic?

One of the most difficult areas in bidding is choosing a trump suit when you do not know whether slam might be on in a minor, but if there is only game your best chance is in a major.

The South hand is an exercise in hand evaluation

I agree with MrAce that the South hand is worth an opening bid and has been only improved by the bidding.

Therefor after

[hv=pc=n&s=sa86432ha92dq74c5&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1d1h1s2hpp]133|200[/hv]

South must DBL, because alternatives (except 3♥) are not even forcing and at this point, vulnerable at IMPs, I would want to force to game. Again a matter of judgement. The South hand is worth much more than its point count suggests.

North can have at most a doubleton in either major and must have at least five diamonds. If North is short in spades, 5♦ or 3NT (less likely) should have play and otherwise I would not want to stop below 4♠.

Agreements matter a lot.

Assume South doubles and North bids 2♠ would now 3♦ by South be forcing?

One way of bidding the hand with no special agreements might be

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1d1h1s2hppdp2sp4cp4dp4hp5hp6dppp]133|100[/hv]

4♣ is an obvious splinter. North, having bid conservatively so far, should not want to stop below slam thereafter with the actual hand.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[ggwhiz]

[hv=d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1d1h2hp3dp3hd3sp4dp4hp4sp4np5sp6dppp]133|100[/hv]

 

1♦ = 1+ diamond 11/15

 

 

2♥ = either 6+ spade NF or 5+ spade inv +

 

 

I don't see any other alert in the bidding. your guess is as good as mine for the rest of the auction.

 

EW hands are

 

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sqj5hq654dt8ct872&e=s97hkjt83d32cakq9]266|100[/hv]

 

That's a lot of science that I don't have but after that number of cue bids I would have thought that 4nt was not blackwood just looking for the club control and south could jump to 6♦ over it. Either a reasonable gamble by north or they agree to only show kc with that control.

 

Without that science after 2♥ (pass by north) we might be able to get there with

 

dbl - 3♦

3♥ - 3♠

4♦ - 4♥

5♣ - 6♦

 

With south willing to risk parking it in 5♦ instead of 4♠ when the slam is not on.

[benlessard]

Yes dbl would be 3 card spades, even though 1♠ showed 5+

 

North didnt double with KT and a stiff H. LOL

[benlessard]

Also tell us what

 

1D-(1H)-2S would have showned so that I can laugh one more time.

[ggwhiz]

North didnt double with KT and a stiff H. LOL

 

oops. I added in the pass by north

[MrAce]

Also tell us what

 

1D-(1H)-2S would have showned so that I can laugh one more time.

 

I already told it http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif Re read.

 

North didnt double with KT and a stiff H. LOL

 

Yes, KT doubleton trump and ruffing values combined works great indeedhttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif Especially when opponents raised hearts simply and pd is likely to hold 4 hearts next to his 5 card spades. Benito Garozzo knows this. But you do not think any of these, you see KT spades and a stiff and that auto upgrades your hand to 3 card support in your opinion. Which is fine. But then you think passing is so huge error that it should not even be posted in expert forum. And you laugh at his choice. I have 3 news for you. One of them is bad, 2nd one is worse, and 3rd one is the worst. Bad news is you are in wrong forum. Worse one is you are not even aware of it. Worst one is, it is highly unlikely that you will ever be aware of it. I don't even know why i give you the hint, since i find it very amusing.

 

But whatever.

[benlessard]

3 mistakes yeah ..2S was such a great result, whatever indeed. you dont think WC-exp can make gross mistakes ? It just rare they make 2-3 in a row but its not impossible you know. Im sure they are willing to admit that this hand go directly into the overcrowded catacombs of poorly bid contract.

 

Do you honestly believe that on this hand it took only one mistake to land in 2S instead of 4S/6D ?

 

Since we don't know what an initial jump to 2S would have meant than maybe the 2S rebid can be bid on 5-7 pts and north last pass isnt as terrible as I think it is but there is at least 2 pretty bad mistakes here not something I often see at the level I consider "expert"

[benlessard]

Is it possible that 1S showed 4+ ? and double is neg without 4S.

 

This would explain a lot.