Do you play this auction forcing?

[humilities]

How do you play the following auction?

 

(2S) X P 3D

P 3H P 4D?

 

Assuming doubling and bidding 3H shows a strong hand (17+) but is not forcing ... is 4D forcing? Or just show long Diamonds and no tolerance for hearts...

 

(note: we do not play lebensohl. Seems to me it would be forcing if you do...)

[akwoo]

I play it as almost forcing: long diamonds, heart tolerance but not support, some strength but not enough for the 5 level, meaning around 6-9 hcp.

 

Something like ♠ xx ♥ xx ♦ KQxxxx ♣ Qxx on average.

[ggwhiz]

(note: we do not play lebensohl. Seems to me it would be forcing if you do...)

 

Add it to your card asap to avoid this annoying guess

[PhilKing]

I play it as almost forcing: long diamonds, heart tolerance but not support, some strength but not enough for the 5 level, meaning around 6-9 hcp.

 

Something like ♠ xx ♥ xx ♦ KQxxxx ♣ Qxx on average.

 

You can bid 3♠ with that.

[Endymion77]

If you don't play Leb, it's not forcing.

[kenberg]

I am going to guess that the reason we are not playing Lebensohl is that we have not had detailed discussions about these auctions. That is, I have to just guess what 4♦ is. So:

 

If I, as the 4♦ bidder, could have tolerated playing in hearts, I would pass 3♥ or raise it to 4. Trying to delicately distinguish which game we should be in, hearts or diamonds, seems just too tough w/o the use of Leb. So I think that 4♦ is something like a six or preferable seven card suit headed by maybe as little as QJT and absolutely nothing else. It's an announcement that I am hoping to bring in ten tricks playing in diamonds, I expect my hand to be useless in hearts, and that's that, do as you think best, most definitely including pass.

 

I do get dealt such hands and this seems to me to be the treatment that is most frequently useful when I cannot start with 2NT over the X.

[gszes]

lebensohld (leb) is one of the most useful conventions devised. It allows for effective

 

competitive bidding after an opps weak 2 that are just impossible without it. Read about

 

the most basic features and adopt it quickly. Here that 4d bid would be unconditionally

 

forcing (slammish) since there was no attempt to bid 3n (by bidding 3s over 3h). The 3d

 

bid showed 8+ but that does not mean we ignore basic bidding principles like majors NT

 

then minors. We would not ever worry about having to bid 4d with say xxx x AQJxxxx xx

 

(yes this qualifies as 8+) we would bid 3s asking p to bid 3n with a spade stop. P would

 

have a very good idea of what our hand looks like for such bidding and should be able

 

to place the contract accurately.

 

 

 

[y66]

Have never discussed this sequence. I think 4D shows a hand that has a source of tricks in diamonds, in case overcaller is interested, and expects to play in 4H. Something like xx xxx KQJxx(x) xx(x).

[kenberg]

Have never discussed this sequence. I think 4D shows a hand that has a source of tricks in diamonds, in case overcaller is interested, and expects to play in 4H. Something like xx xxx KQJxx(x) xx(x).

 

I am way too much of a pessimist to want to use 4♦ in this way on such a hand. For slam to be thre partner obviously needs Ax of diamonds. He also needs AKQxx(x) of hearts since with AKJxx he would need to go to the board to finesse, and that kills the entry even if the finesse works. He needs one more ace at least, and he has to worry that the opponents might cash two quicks in whatever suit he does not have the ace of. It's not like you have so many highs that an AK lying with the opponents is particularly unlikely after you give pard two side aces and the AKQ of hearts.

 

We might be missing a slam, true enough, but even if 4♦ was available to show some sort of slam try in hearts I would, with this hand, just raise 3♥ to 4.