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Two from the Swiss #2

wyman
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nige1

nige1

Posted
Posted
Axxxxx Kx xx KQx

1S (4H) 4S (P)

5H (P) 5N (P)

6C (P) ??

(1) thoughts on 5N?

(2) what now?

IMO

  1. After partner's 5♥, 6♠ = 10, 5♠ = 7, 6♣ = 5, 5N = 4. If ♥K is duplication, you have an excellent 9 count.
  2. Now, over 6♣, 6♠ = 10, 6♥ = 7, 6N = 6, 7♠ = 3. Partner opened 1♠ (not 2♣). He won't want to hear 6N if he holds ♠ KQxxxxx ♥- ♦ KQJxx ♣ A

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quiddity

quiddity

Posted
Posted

Close between 6♥ and 7♠. Hopefully partner took my 5NT as denying a minor-suit ace and he's still trying for a grand. It sounds like he has a heart void in which case I can count 6 spades, two ruffs, 3 clubs, 1 diamond. Could he be missing the ♦KQ?

 

I think with a strong diamond suit he should cuebid 6♦, since the ♣A is implied, so maybe 6♥ is enough.

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the hog

the hog

Posted
Posted

Wat?

 

You read correctly. Pushing on with this is a BIG overbid.Just try and picture a few of the hands on which partner would bid 4S.

Pd might have anywhere from 5S a void and out to hand that makes 6.

 

Regarding Nigel's concoction of ♠ KQxxxxx ♥- ♦ KQJxx ♣ A

No bridge player would bid 4S holding this - you have to be kidding.

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wyman

wyman

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You read correctly. Pushing on with this is a BIG overbid.Just try and picture a few of the hands on which partner would bid 4S.

Pd might have anywhere from 5S a void and out to hand that makes 6.

 

Regarding Nigel's concoction of ♠ KQxxxxx ♥- ♦ KQJxx ♣ A

No bridge player would bid 4S holding this - you have to be kidding.

 

I don't know what you think the auction is, but it's not the one I gave. You are responder.

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broze

broze

Posted
Posted

Surely knowing the vulnerabilities is crucial in making decisions in this kind of auction and evaluating what hand-types p could have? If we are w/r for example p will expect relatively little for 4S and is probably very good.

 

5♥ in my book guarantees single A or void so it's very likely we have the grand on but I cannot unilaterally bid it However I will try 6♥ which should be a kind of last train bid denying a Diamond control since p does not need to know about my H holding. 6H will get us to grand opposite KQJxx -- Axxx AJxx (if you think p can have that) but not KQJxx -- AQJxx Axx. Again, when assessing what moves I think p would make with these hands I would want to know the colours.

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kenrexford

kenrexford

Posted
Posted

I don't understand at all.

 

If 5♥ is a showing cuebid, Opener just denied a club control, so why are we thinking about a grand?

 

If 5♥ is a denial cuebid, Opener just denied a heart control, so why are we thinking about a grand?

 

If 5♥ somehow shows the King of trumps and three side Aces, where he would care about my heart King, you are playing a weird system.

 

If 5♥ shows a void in hearts, then why would 5NT show the heart King, a card that must be utterly useless?

 

 

 

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broze

broze

Posted
Posted

<snip>

If 5♥ shows a void in hearts, then why would 5NT show the heart King, a card that must be utterly useless?

 

Why does anyone think 5N shows the HK - OP didn't suggest that did he? I've never heard of that treatment... For me it would just show a good hand for slam unable to bid 6♣ to show the Ace in that suit. I like 5N but only if 5♥ is void-showing, which I think it should be. It certainly makes no sense to play it as a showing cue-bid.

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wyman

wyman

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Posted

Surely knowing the vulnerabilities is crucial in making decisions in this kind of auction and evaluating what hand-types p could have? If we are w/r for example p will expect relatively little for 4S and is probably very good.

 

5♥ in my book guarantees single A or void so it's very likely we have the grand on but I cannot unilaterally bid it However I will try 6♥ which should be a kind of last train bid denying a Diamond control since p does not need to know about my H holding. 6H will get us to grand opposite KQJxx -- Axxx AJxx (if you think p can have that) but not KQJxx -- AQJxx Axx. Again, when assessing what moves I think p would make with these hands I would want to know the colours.

 

@ Broze/Quiddity: I try (and often fail) not to say too much in threads I start. But I guess I'm wondering, if you think I'm worth 6H -- which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with -- what do you think is the minimum I can have for 5N?

 

@ Everyone: I didn't specify, but partner has a pulse. He's not bidding 5H missing 3 aces, and we don't play denial cuebids. Partner is a very strong player, but suffice it to say that we didn't discuss this auction before the session.

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ArtK78

ArtK78

Posted
Posted

Partner's first cue bid is 5♥. To me, this denies first round control of both minor suits. So I sign off in 5♠.

 

Why do you say partner is not bidding 5♥ missing 3 aces? What would he do with KQJTxx --- KQJTxx x? And, if he is a strong player, why would he not be cue bidding a minor suit ace if he had one?

 

The 5♥ bid makes no sense to me unless he has a hand like the one I suggested.

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CSGibson

CSGibson

Posted
Posted (edited)

I like 5N (encouraging, showing more than 6♠) as long as I had the plan of bidding 6♠ over anything partner did, and as long as partner has not denied minor suit aces by bidding 5♥ (a style that makes some sense to me, especially if partner has controls in every suit, and needs to make a general slam try, which is what I believe 5♥ should be...you can't make an intelligent "invite partner to the party" Q with that hand, since partner is known not to have any 1st round controls, and cannot cooperate).

 

I strongly believe that since this is your first opportunity to Q, any 6 level Q should show first round control. So now, 6♠ - partner will infer secondary honors and good trump for having bid 5N and not being able to cue a 1st round control at the 6 level.

 

This was edited to expand on my original thoughts.

Edited by CSGibson
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kenrexford

kenrexford

Posted
Posted

This is insanity, but...

 

If 5♥ implies a void, and if 5NT was some sort of cuebid showing grand interest with no Aces, and if 6♣ by partner encouraged slam consideration anyway, then 6♥ should be a cuebid showing club values but no diamond values, an implied COV in clubs. You have that, so 6♥ it is, I guess!

 

 

 

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quiddity

quiddity

Posted
Posted

I strongly believe that since this is your first opportunity to Q, any 6 level Q should show first round control. So now, 6♠ - partner will infer secondary honors and good trump for having bid 5N and not being able to cue a 1st round control at the 6 level.

 

If you had a first-round control you could have Q'd it over 5♥.

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nige1

nige1

Posted
Posted
@ Broze/Quiddity: I try (and often fail) not to say too much in threads I start. But I guess I'm wondering, if you think I'm worth 6H -- which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with -- what do you think is the minimum I can have for 5N?

@ Everyone: I didn't specify, but partner has a pulse. He's not bidding 5H missing 3 aces, and we don't play denial cuebids. Partner is a very strong player, but suffice it to say that we didn't discuss this auction before the session

Following wyman's persuasive argument:

  • Partner's 5♥ is an unambiguous slam-try.
  • Your 5N co-operated, denying 1st round control in a minor.
  • Partner's 6♣ showed he still has grand-slam interest.

Of the two minors, why did partner choose to cue-bid 6♣? Is he asking for help in that suit? If so he has no worse than

♠ K Q J x x x ♥- ♦ A x ♣ A J x x x or

♠ K Q J x x ♥ A ♦ A x ♣ A x x x x

 

Hence, I suppose you should just bid 7♠ :)

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Lorne50

Lorne50

Posted
Posted
Surely 5♥ shows all 3 side suit first round controls. I do not see how he can bid that opposite a partner who may have been pressured into bidding 4♠ with no sensible cue in a minor. I would have bid 7♠ last round. And with the hand others have suggested for opener missing three aces I would have bid 5♣, not 5♥.
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MrAce

MrAce

Posted
Posted

Chris and i seem to be on same page in most topics as well as this one.(at least that's what i think and i am not sure if Chris takes this as compliment or an insult http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) Weird though, i agree with Kenrexford too on this one, perhaps it's time for me to go see my dr.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif (joke Ken)

 

-I can not bid 5♠ and sign off when the problem is given to me at 6♣ level, so i will not debate for something that is too late anyway. Because then we will get into cue bid styles at 5 level and all that *****... So let's assume that 5♥ did not deny minor aces, there is nothing we can do if otherwise.

 

-In this context, My previous bid 5 NT, told my pd that i accept slam, and have extras, obviously not first round control, so i bail out now and bid 6 ♠

 

-I also agree with Broze about the info when Wyman introduces us the problem, Tbh until i reread the replies, i just found out that we are the responder. I was avoiding this topic, thinking that we are opener and already grossly overbid our hand and looking for grandslam now is.......http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

 

(1) 5N to show the Heart King? I guess it's fine, 6♣ probably sounds like the Ace.

(2) 6N

 

-5 NT showed king of hearts ? Where did this come from ? And even if it did, out of insanity, which part of it did you find "fine" ? I saw a lot of interesting/weird stuff in BBF but, you know it must be really weird if Ken is calling it http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

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CSGibson

CSGibson

Posted
Posted

If you had a first-round control you could have Q'd it over 5♥.

 

I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree. At the same time, that's one of those things that lets you win the postmortem after you get to 7♠ down 1 - partner should have been able to figure out your brilliant sequence. Maybe I err on the side of caution in murky cue-bidding situations too much, but I don't want to put that much pressure on partner. I make my one grand slam try and sign off.

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CSGibson

CSGibson

Posted
Posted

Chris and i seem to be on same page in most topics as well as this one.(at least that's what i think and i am not sure if Chris takes this as compliment or an insult

 

 

Hey Timo, I respect your opinions, especially when you agree with me :).

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