Is this a routine negative double?

[the_dude]

You play 2/1, none vul at matchpoints, partner opens 1♦ in first seat and RHO overcalls 1♠:

 

x

10xxxx

Axxxx

xx

 

(1) are you doubling? If not, what?

 

---

 

Ok, let's assume you double:

 

(2) What is plan when LHO bids 4♠, partner doubles, passed back to you?

 

(3) What if LHO bids 4♠ and partner passes? Any difference?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

(apologies if this is too basic for the expert forums)

[billw55]

Matchpoints, I would like to find the major if possible, so double. Nonvul and with a safe harbor in diamonds, what's the worst that can happen? Partner leaves it in? I have an ace and trump to lead.

 

Similarly, with an ace, I can pass 4♠x with a clear conscience.

[ahydra]

I think we have to X so that the heart fit is not lost if partner has a big hand. We can always go back to diamonds.

 

Now in both (2) and (3) I'll bid 5D 4NT planning to pull 5C to 5D.

 

ahydra

[jillybean]

Easy double, now I pass.

[helene_t]

Yes. And p's double is not penalty. I pull it.

 

If p passes it is less clear but I think I still double.

[Fluffy]

congrats to the doublers who have an easy 4NT to play 5 red. I would pass 1♠ and then wonder over 4♠, I have no clue what I'd do at second round.

[mikeh]

I think this is a negative double since there are way too many hands where this belongs to us in a red suit, to make or save, and we can't get there unless we take action now. Imagine partner looking at some 4=1=5=3 hand with a minimum. He can't reopen and there we are defending 1♠ with a 10 card fit and me with controls in 3 suits.

 

Having doubled, in the first scenario partner's double of 4♠ is not a pure penalty double. Standard practice is to use this call to announce ownership of the hand, but no clear direction.

 

Well, we do have clear direction: we do NOT want to defend. Our A may take a trick but the odds are that we are 'stealing' a trick from partner whose KQ are no longer as useful as he thinks, and the rest of our hand is worthless on defence and probably useful on offence.

 

Thus 4N it is, altho if you are in doubt as to how this should be read (and in the expert forum this is always 2 places to play), you could do worse than commit to 5♦.

 

I would never bid this way with the same values and say 1=6=4=0, since there is too much risk of getting into a 4-4 fit at an uncomfortable level. The 5th diamond gives me more offence and simultaneously reduces the chances of either opp having the trump to double us when we do over-reach.

[ahydra]

For some reason I was thinking 4NT would be a good call too - but ended up putting 5D in my post. I'll change that.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Not quite good enough for 3♥ fit by our methods, I probably bid 3♦, don't like double which tends to deny a fit the way we play.

[the_clown]

I would double, second choice is 3♦. Passing with so much playing strenght wouldnt occur to me.

 

No matter what partner does I would bid 5♦ at my second turn.

[Finch]

If I doubled on the first round, I would bid 5D not 4NT on the second. 5 card support needs showing. 4NT, if it is hearts and diamonds, is more likely to be 5-3.

If I passed on the first round, it's close between 4NT and 5D on the second. I still have 5-card support...

[jallerton]

congrats to the doublers who have an easy 4NT to play 5 red. I would pass 1♠ and then wonder over 4♠, I have no clue what I'd do at second round.

 

Did you misread the question? I'm not saying that double is the only alternative, but surely if not doubling, it must be right to raise diamonds to some level (quite which level depending to some extent on basic system/opening bid style).

[ggwhiz]

Passing with so much playing strenght wouldnt occur to me.

 

Nor me. I'm doubling but passing partners double.

 

After more than one disaster we agreed that partners double of 4♠ must be based on their tricks, not mine and I have one. Nice if it was in hearts instead of diamonds but if that's the difference, thems the breaks and I expect my club lead to work out more often than not.

[nigel_k]

I think it's fine to double on a hand that would have responded 1♥ and this qualifies very easily.

 

However I would bid 4♦. The heart suit won't matter unless we happen to strike a layout where both 5♦ and 5♥ are making which is fairly unlikely compared to the good things that can happen if we raise to the limit immediately.

[dake50]

I think it's fine to double on a hand that would have responded 1♥ and this qualifies very easily.

 

However I would bid 4♦. The heart suit won't matter unless we happen to strike a layout where both 5♦ and 5♥ are making which is fairly unlikely compared to the good things that can happen if we raise to the limit immediately. -- nigel_k

 

*** Absolutely agree.

Why am I offering blab -I have hearts-

when it is so likely opponents have a 4S/not decision??

And I can suggest 5D will be cheap to partner.

[gszes]

when p passes 4s they are basically saying they have a minimum hand and it becomes

hugely speculative to consider x 4s for penalty at that point. If you decided to run it would

be best to run to 4n and correct 5c to 5d. I would

 

pass

 

if partner passes 4s.

 

 

If p x 4s they are showing extra values and the odds of us making 5 of a minor increase dramatically.

Under these conditions I would easily bid

 

4n

 

converting 5c to 5d there are no guarantees but I think the odds are on our side and we need to take

at least 5 tricks on defense to make up for a game if we have one and that's not as easy as it seems

if the opps are sporting a ten + card fit (which certainly seems possible)

[cherdano]

I don't understand the 4NT bidders at all (in the auction X (4S) X (P) ). We know that partner's diamonds are at least as long as his hearts, and often they will be longer. So if we go out of our way of suggesting hearts (first double, then 4NT) that should promise longer hearts than diamonds.