Upgrade?

[eagles123]

Firstly, playing 12-14 NT is the South hand worth an upgrade? Secondly, what do you bid as South now (if u passed first time)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq3hqt3dt32ct95&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1cp1sp2n(game%20forcing)p]133|200[/hv]

[Vampyr]

I don't think that the South hand is an upgrade.

 

As for the second part, if 2NT is the standard 18-19, it is difficult to see how we can have a slam on. So I will just raise to 3NT.

 

However, the note implies that the 2NT bid is stronger than that; without knowing how strong, I cannot answer further.

[the hog]

Don't upgrade this. Bid 3NT now.

[mikestar13]

I would probably upgrade this one: the hand is significantly better than a typical 11-count, while 1NT gets in their way if it is their hand and is easy to bid if it is ours--I simply decline all invitations and refuse to co-operate in any slam investigations.

 

In the actual auction, 3NT.

[wyman]

I tend not to upgrade 4333's, but this is close.

 

I bid 3N now.

[Zelandakh]

I would not upgrade in second seat but would open 1♠ in third. As others have already given, 3NT seems clear now as we do not have enough combined assets to go beyond this and there is no call we can make at the 3 level to show this hand that might allow partner to make such a move. Give Opener ♠Jx ♥KJx ♦Axx ♣AKQJx, if this is a 2NT rebid for you, and there is a decent slam. Meanwhile we might even be down from 5 diamond tricks off the top! ♠Jxx ♥AKJ ♦Jxx ♣AKQx and 3NT is usually down on a 5-2 diamond split with 4♠ making. There is no way of finding out either way so just bid the most likely game.

[mcphee]

Playing weak NT this is exactly the wrong conditions to upgrade, reverse the colors and you have good reasons to open 1NT.

 

I can see any reason to look for slam with this hand and end it with 3NT.

[Cyberyeti]

You say 2N is GF, are you playing a normal 2N opener ? and is the 2N rebid always balanced ?

[helene_t]

2NT as 19-20 balanced, right?

 

3NT then. Only if p can have a singleton diamonds, and I have a tool to locate it, will I think of slam.

 

I think it would be reasonable to upgrade this hand.

[ggwhiz]

Second seat is the wrong spot to upgrade anything close, the colors are wrong and so is the shape.

 

3nt. Slam can't possibly be better than winning 2 of 3 hooks can it?

[eagles123]

Thanks folks, the whole hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq3hqt3dt32ct95&w=sjt642h8654dj86cj&n=s98hakdak7ckq8642&e=s75hj972dq954ca73&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1cp1sp2np3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

should anyone have done more or just one of those hands?

 

Thanks,

 

Eagles

[kenrexford]

Thanks folks, the whole hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq3hqt3dt32ct95&w=sjt642h8654dj86cj&n=s98hakdak7ckq8642&e=s75hj972dq954ca73&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1cp1sp2np3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

should anyone have done more or just one of those hands?

 

Thanks,

 

Eagles

 

The upgrading issue is with North. Obviously, he has precisely 19 HCP. However:

 

1. The control count is 7. Using the three-and-a-third method of re-evaluation, he has 23-and-a-third, minus 19 is 4-and-a-third, which is a +1 upgrade already

 

2. He has a great quality 6-card suit. I would upgrade +1 or even +2 on this basis alone.

 

So far, you get to about a 21-22 count for notrump purposes.

 

For suit contract purposes, North has a 3-loser hand, which is sufficient in the abstract to open 2♣ and then rebid 3♣.

 

Thus, the hand is strong enough for a strong forcing 2♣ opening (even if that is not the best option) or for a 2NT opening (which I assume shows this range), and perhaps even a 2♣ opening followed by 2NT (23 HCP equivalence is not far off).

 

 

 

 

FWIW, I would have opened 2NT.

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilKing]

should anyone have done more or just one of those hands?

 

Thanks,

 

Eagles

 

It seems odd that you play 2NT as forcing, but do not have any means of asking partner why he has bid it. Should there not be some way of finding out?

 

I don't want to get into methods, but I play something similar and would have been able to ascertain that pard had circa 19-20 points, six clubs and red stops after this start. There's not really much point playing it otherwise!

[ArtK78]

While North has a very nice hand, and, as mentioned by Ken two posts above, a 2NT opening might be appropriate, it is still hard to get to slam on these hands. It is a perfect fit, with the 10 and 9 of clubs carrying full weight. Even then, slam is not cold (although it is very good).

 

Someone is going to have to overbid to get to a slam on these cards.I think Ken is overstating the case to call the North hand a 2♣ opener. I would never open the North hand 2♣. 2NT is not unreasonable.

[kenrexford]

While North has a very nice hand, and, as mentioned by Ken two posts above, a 2NT opening might be appropriate, it is still hard to get to slam on these hands. It is a perfect fit, with the 10 and 9 of clubs carrying full weight. Even then, slam is not cold (although it is very good).

 

Someone is going to have to overbid to get to a slam on these cards.I think Ken is overstating the case to call the North hand a 2♣ opener. I would never open the North hand 2♣. 2NT is not unreasonable.

 

Responder doesn't just luckily have the 10-9 in clubs. He has ALL the 10's (except in his A-K-Q suit). If a Jack is worth one point, then 10+10+109 seems worth something.

 

All Responder needs to do is a simple Puppet Stayman bid, finding out that partner does not have a 4+ major, and then bid 4NT. From there, North should have no problem accepting. If partner hedges with a 5♣ call, the 109x looks better.

[ArtK78]

Responder doesn't just luckily have the 10-9 in clubs. He has ALL the 10's (except in his A-K-Q suit). If a Jack is worth one point, then 10+10+109 seems worth something.

 

All Responder needs to do is a simple Puppet Stayman bid, finding out that partner does not have a 4+ major, and then bid 4NT. From there, North should have no problem accepting. If partner hedges with a 5♣ call, the 109x looks better.

And why would responder be looking for slam with his 11 count (admittedly with lots of 10s and 9s) opposite a 20-21 HCP 2NT opener?

[eagles123]

It seems odd that you play 2NT as forcing, but do not have any means of asking partner why he has bid it. Should there not be some way of finding out?

 

I don't want to get into methods, but I play something similar and would have been able to ascertain that pard had circa 19-20 points, six clubs and red stops after this start. There's not really much point playing it otherwise!

 

I play what the teacher tells me lol, it's only kinda basic system, so your methods might be useful pls

 

thanks,

 

Eagles

[kenrexford]

And why would responder be looking for slam with his 11 count (admittedly with lots of 10s and 9s) opposite a 20-21 HCP 2NT opener?

31-32 with lots of 10's and 9's looks pretty good for inviting to me, especially if my partner can have a hand with playing strength of this nature.

[ArtK78]

31-32 with lots of 10's and 9's looks pretty good for inviting to me, especially if my partner can have a hand with playing strength of this nature.

And if a passed hand issues a 4NT invite, the hand with the 6 clubs, that already upgraded itself to a 2NT opener, is going to take another call?

[kenrexford]

And if a passed hand issues a 4NT invite, the hand with the 6 clubs, that already upgraded itself to a 2NT opener, is going to take another call?

Obviously?

[PhilKing]

I play what the teacher tells me lol, it's only kinda basic system, so your methods might be useful pls

 

thanks,

 

Eagles

 

Well it depends what hands go through 2NT (mine does not include strong balanced). Transposing the hand I include with your strong balanced hand, the structure would be, 3♣ relay, then:

 

3♦ = a normal balanced hand (I guess 19 or good 18)

3♥♠NT = GF with 6+ clubs, showing feature (so on the actual hand you would bid 3NT to show both unbid suits stopped, 6 clubs and about 19-20 points)

 

Bids other than 3♣ (or 3NT) are natural, showing extreme distribution.

 

IMO, the convention is not very good to start with, because it is tactically right to respond on weak hands sometimes, but in your system you can't, because partner now forces to game with a balanced 19.

[Vampyr]

Using the three-and-a-third method of re-evaluation,

What is this?

[kenrexford]

What is this?

 

I think this was Ron Klinger, maybe, who came up with this. But, the idea is as follows:

 

Step 1: HCP count (traditional 4-3-2-1)

 

Step 2: Control count (A=2, K=1)

 

Step 3: Multiple control count by 3 1/3

 

Step 4: Subtract answer to Step 1 from answer to Step 3 and get a positive or negative number

 

Step 5: If the result is +/- anything up to 1 2/3, no adjustment. If +/-2 up to 5 2/3, add/subtract 1 from the HCP count. If 6-8 2/3, adjust by 2. If 9+, adjust by 3.

 

This sounds tougher than it seems. You remember the Step 3 answer automatically if you do this a lot.

 

As an example, this hand had AK-AK-K with a HCP of 19. AAKKK is quick math 7, which is recalled immediately from doing this so often as 23 1/3. 23 1/3 - 19 is 4 1/3. The actual math there is only "done" when close to a line (2, 6, or 9). So, this is in the +1 range.

 

That entire process in my mind usually goes something like this: "7+7+5=19. 4-5-6-7...23.3...4.3...+1=20" Not that long. In fact, it actually usually goes, "7-14-19. 7=4ish=20."

 

 

 

 

 

[Vampyr]

Thanks I guess.