Hard to bid up to slam for 4441 with 21hcp

[lycier]

[hv=sn=|lin=pn|S,W,N,E|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S79KH4569TD37C568%2CS5H37JKD49KACJQKA%2CS236QH28D568TJC7T%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2019%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2D%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CDT%7C]499|350[/hv]

 

4441 with 21hcp,maybe it is very hard to describe rightly,I have no idea.now how to bid up to slam reasonablly?

thank you very much.

[nigel_k]

One option is to treat a strong 4441 hand as balanced. In this case, if West opened 2NT, East would keeping bidding up to 6NT. It would be hard to reach 7♣ though.

 

The actual 1♣ opening is fine though. After opener's reverse, East has a very suitable hand with (he thinks) nine trumps and well fitting cards. If forced to pick a contract immediately over 2♦ with the East cards, I would pick 6♣ not 3NT. But East is not forced to decide immediately and can just support clubs and allow the auction to develop. West will cooperate very happily of course.

[32519]

In my version of the Multi the bidding would have gone like this –

[hv=d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p2d(Multi)p2s(My%20longest%20major)p2n(Big%204441%20hand)p3d(GF%2C%20I%20have%20values)p3s(My%20singleton)p4c(Suit)p4d(Redwood%20for%20Clubs)p4n(2%20keycards)p5n(Pick-a-slam)]133|100[/hv]

To get to the ♣ grand will not be easy. East with a choice between 6♣ and 6NT can still make a try for the grand by bidding kings and queens up the line. So a bid of 6♦ or 6♥ may be just enough for West to pull out the 7♣ card.

[wank]

i don't know how much extra 3nt shows in your methods - some people play 2nt as forcing for example, with 2 hearts weak/lebensohl, in which case 3nt would show enough extra for west just to bid slam. if it doesn't show that much then west just invites with 4nt and east accepts. this is from west's point of view.

 

oviously this is ignoring east's absurd 3nt call with a huge hand and 4 card support for partner's first suit. he should bid 4c, not 3nt.

[akwoo]

3N by East after a reverse is absolutely terrible. Not only does it inhibit slam exploration; from East's point of view, 4♠ could very well be a better game.

 

You can play 2♥ as fourth suit forcing or as weakness showing (like Lebensohl) after this reverse. East should bid 2♥ if it is fourth suit forcing and 3♣ (which in any system should be forcing at least to 3N, if not outright forcing to game) if it is not.

 

After a reverse, any bid at the 3 level is forcing to 3N. Many in fact play that 2N (and of course game bids) is the only non-forcing bid. Others play that 2N is Lebensohl, or the cheaper of 2N and the fourth suit works like Lebensohl.

 

My auction looks like:

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♦ - 2♥(1)

2N - 3♣

4N - 5♥

6♣

 

(1) - Fourth suit forcing. For me, fourth suit forcing followed by supporting clubs shows a stronger hand than immediate club support.

 

If playing 2♥ as weakness showing rather than fourth suit forcing, then my auction looks like (but I admit to being biased by seeing both hands in reaching the grand slam):

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♦ - 3♣

3♥ - 3N

4♣ - 4N

5♦ - 5♥

7♣

 

Here, opener pulling 3N to 4♣ shows slam interest, after which 4N is RKCB, 5♦ shows 3, and 5♥ is the queen ask (in this case obviously for grand slam purposes).

[fromageGB]

Using very simple methods, where 1♦ shows long diamonds or a shortage (singleton or void) outside diamonds, and a natural rebid of NT after partner bids your shortage in a 3-suiter, it goes 1♦ 1♠ 3NT 6♣, or if you fear you may be missing 2 aces, 4♣ Gerber, then 6♣. But I think I am the only one in the forum who rebids a natural NT, and the only one who admits to playing Gerber. :D

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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4441 with 21hcp,maybe it is very hard to describe rightly,I have no idea.now how to bid up to slam reasonablly?

thank you very much.

The 2D reverse ostensibly shows longer ♣ than ♦.

So, Responder might bid a GF 3C ( 2H! is NOT 4th suit forcing but is the weakness Lebensohl bid for the 2D reverse auction ... ie. the start of a sign-off )

 

1C - 1S

2D - 3C

4C ( with no 2 quick losers, Opener uses Minorwood -- since suit agreement was below the 4-level )

.... - 4S ( 3rd step = 2 - ♣Q )

5H ( asking for 3rd Rnd ♥ Ctrl ; which is a step above the 5D = Kickback for Kings )

.... - 5NT = ♥Q but no outside K )

?? ( duh...I'm afraid I have to admit that I can't count to a sure 13 tricks in 7C ...) perhaps, if I attempt to sign-off in 6C, Responder will view the ♦Q as golden and bump it up to 7C )

[mike777]

A very complicated hand to bid.

 

It is a great hand to bid because it brings up difficult and confusing reverse and kickback issues to discuss:

 

1d=1s

2h=3c!

4c=4d!

4h=4s!

4nt=5d!

5h=7c?

 

 

2h=assume 5d and 4h at this point

3c=art/gf(btw 3d here by responder would be natural and gf/2s and 2nt would be weakish)

4c=1444 or 0454

4d=rkc in clubs(again 3d by responder over 2h would set d as trumps and gf)(btw2 4nt here would be to play.)

4h=0-3

4s=qc ask

4nt=qc and kd

5d=any other kings, grand try

5h=Kh

[inquiry]

[hv=sn=|lin=pn|S,W,N,E|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S79KH4569TD37C568%2CS5H37JKD49KACJQKA%2CS236QH28D568TJC7T%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2019%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2D%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CDT%7C]499|350[/hv]

 

4441 with 21hcp,maybe it is very hard to describe rightly,I have no idea.now how to bid up to slam reasonablly?

thank you very much.

 

Playing inquiry2over1 the auction would be

2C 2D2N 3C3H 3S4C 7C

See the website with the system name for full details. Two notation showed three suited, three hearts showed short spade and for or five losers, four clubs showed 1444 with four losers. East can count four cover cards for the four losers. He could ask some more, or he can blast.

[Fluffy]

I would show a big balanced hand like nigel, but I might upgrade to 22 due to the singleton :)

 

after 1♣ opening, 3NT is too little, but passing 3NT is also not a piece of beauty, got 21 when shown 16, this is worth another bid or 2.

[Zelandakh]

As others have pointed out, East's 3NT rebid is responsible for the bad result. I play a similar 3-suited method to Ben but do not get to use it on this hand because East gives a positive response to the strong opening:

 

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1♥ = 4+ spades, GF (if bal or 3-suited then also 4+ hearts)

1♠ = relay, usually 18+

... - 2NT = 5 spades, 4 clubs

3♣ = relay

... - 3♥ = 5224

3♠ = relay

... - 4♥ = extras, 4 controls

7♣

 

Continuing the auction here is only going to help the defence.

 

Finally, to Don, in your auction I would think 4NT asks for kings. So the question is what the continuation 4NT - 5♣ (no side kings but something extra) - 5♦ should mean. If that is a queen ask (not an SSA) then you can now bid the grand with confidence. In general, if you cannot place the contract after an SSA then it was the wrong choice. Notice that this sequence (with 4NT) is precisely the one you gain by using Minorwood rather than Kickback so you really want to make the most of it.

[lowerline]

I think the bidding should start 1♣-1♠-2♥. If I have to bury a suit, I do it with a minor never with a major...

Then it depends on your agreements after a reverse. I play Lebensohl, so I can bid a forcing 3♣.

 

1♣-1♠

2♥-3♣

3♦-3♠(1)

3nt-4♥(2)

4nt-5♥(3)

6♣

 

(1) 3♦ could just be asking for a stopper, which you don't have.

(2) After 3nt you know 3♦ was a value-based control-showing bid (♦A or K). I think 4♥ now shows stronger slam interest than 4♣.

(3) 2 keycards without the queen

 

One red suit queen is enough to bid the grand. I cannot find out.

 

Steven

[mike777]

A very complicated hand to bid.

 

It is a great hand to bid because it brings up difficult and confusing reverse and kickback issues to discuss:

 

1d=1s

2h=3c!

4c=4d!

4h=4s!

4nt=5d!

5h=7c?

 

 

2h=assume 5d and 4h at this point

3c=art/gf(btw 3d here by responder would be natural and gf/2s and 2nt would be weakish)

4c=1444 or 0454

4d=rkc in clubs(again 3d by responder over 2h would set d as trumps and gf)(btw2 4nt here would be to play.)

4h=0-3

4s=qc ask

4nt=qc and kd

5d=any other kings, grand try

5h=Kh

 

Just one example of how complicated this is, I got this response to my bidding by a partner:

 

"Okay, so over 4S Club queen ask, opener should bid 5D --- DENYING the spade king.

 

 

 

Now, responder can try 5H (do you have anything else??? --- dangerous because opener MIGHT think it is showing, but I really think it is SAFE in a good partnership).

 

 

 

Then 6H by opener and 7C by responder."

[SteveMoe]

Opening 2♣ with strong 1=4=4=4 hands requires a bit more than this one, though it is close. Rather than opening 2N the "Slam Killer" I'd bid as follows:

1♦-1♠

3♣-4♣ Minorwood

4♥(3)-4♠ ♣Q ask

5♦yes & ♦K - 5♥ Any extras?

5N(♥K)- 7♣

 

East knows red Queens are pulling full weight, and that West is unbalanced. ♠ likely short.

 

I would not open 1♣ and reverse as this promises longer ♣ than ♦.

[Zelandakh]

Opening 2♣ with strong 1=4=4=4 hands requires a bit more than this one, though it is close.

Not if you play a method like Ben's (which is a modified version of Chris Ryall's).

[Cyberyeti]

This hand is particularly difficult for us as we open 1♦ and rebid 2♥, but not insurmountable:

 

1♦-1♠

2♥-3♣

4♣-4♦(kickback)

4♠(0/3)-4N(Q♣?)

5♦(yes + K♦)-5♥(I have one of K/Q♥, bid 7 with the other)

7♣

[TWO4BRIDGE]

The 2D reverse ostensibly shows longer ♣ than ♦.

So, Responder might bid a GF 3C ( 2H! is NOT 4th suit forcing but is the weakness Lebensohl bid for the 2D reverse auction ... ie. the start of a sign-off )

 

1C - 1S

2D - 3C

4C ( with no 2 quick losers, Opener uses Minorwood -- since suit agreement was below the 4-level )

.... - 4S ( 3rd step = 2 - ♣Q )

5H ( asking for 3rd Rnd ♥ Ctrl ; which is a step above the 5D = Kickback for Kings )

.... - 5NT = ♥Q but no outside K )

?? ( duh...I'm afraid I have to admit that I can't count to a sure 13 tricks in 7C ...) perhaps, if I attempt to sign-off in 6C, Responder will view the ♦Q as golden and bump it up to 7C )

Above is my post # 7 .

 

Since no King-ask, and knowing that Opener has AKQ of ♣ ( ostensibly from 5+ cards ), Responder should realize that BOTH red Queens are valuable ( ♦ being Opener's bid side-suit ), and thus should just blast to 7C over the 5H-Qask bid .

[Lovera]

(..)The opener revalutes its hand with +1 point (shape 4-4-4-1) :(54) ♠ A Q 10 4 ♥ 5 ♦ A K Q 2 ♣ A J 10 7 Bidding 1♦ (p) 1♥ (p) . Initially count was 22 points. Rectified value is now 21 points : two points for shortness of hearts must be eliminated (1♥) whilest web count +1 'cause shape.(From ..Stayman.. pagg. 76 and 77). But i say another thing : Courtney losers in the hand : 4points 21. Then you must work so: Courtney loser x 5 = 20 < points=21 i open 2♣..

[Lovera]

As cards lie there are 7♣. See also my post n. 17 in Counting Quick tricks ..(in "Find my content")

[Shugart23]

I'm not sure partner and I would find it, but the path we would go would be open 1C( precision), partner responds 1H which shows 5+ Spades and 8+ HCP). Opener bids 1NT, asking for controls. Partner responds 2H, showing 4 = 2 Aces. Opener bids 3H asking about Heart Support and Partner bids 4D (showing Axx OR AQ). This positive response actually establish Hearts as our trump suit as far as partner knows. Opener bids 5D asking what round control Partner has of Diamonds, Partner bids 5S showing 3rd round control of the Diamond suit. and then Opener has to make a judgment call where to set the contract....

 

Like I said, I'm not sure if we get there.....if interested, partner and I use a lot of Oliver Clarkes Precision system which is on-line and has great explanations