Fluffy Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 [hv=pc=n&s=s73h82daqjt4cjt52&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1c(might%20be%202%20if%20bal)p1h(transfer)3d(%27standard%27%20preempt)d(minimum%20with%204%20card%20spades)4c(fit%20bid)4s]133|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 I will follow up on my standard preempt with a standard lead of ♣J :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 5♣. They can probably make 5/6♠, but they dont know it. I would expect to go -300 when we get doubled. Pushing them to slam is my only concern, but it will be tough to bid it and sometimes it may go down, especially after partner told me what to lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 5♣. They can probably make 5/6♠, but they dont know it.They will know it after 5♣ though, since you just announced the big double fit. I do not think we want to involve partner in a 6 level decision here so if we are bidding it seems to me clear that 5♦ is better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 They will know it after 5♣ though, since you just announced the big double fit. I do not think we want to involve partner in a 6 level decision here so if we are bidding it seems to me clear that 5♦ is better. I am also not thrilled about announcing our double fit, but I fear that clubs may play a lot better. Partner may have something like x xxxx Kx AQxxx and meant to bid 4♣ mainly as lead directing (I would certainly bid 4♣ holding that hand). Another danger in 5♦ are club ruffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 They will know it after 5♣ though, since you just announced the big double fit. I do not think we want to involve partner in a 6 level decision here so if we are bidding it seems to me clear that 5♦ is better.After 5♦ they know pretty much the same. Unless you are trying to muddy the waters, you will bid 5♦ when the 4♣ bid increased your ODR, which is typically when you have a fit for clubs. I would prefer to let partner play in clubs. If we play in diamonds we can predict a club ruff. If we play in clubs, they might try for a diamond ruff, but most likely there won't be one since our preempt was ... well err ... standard (for lack of a better word ;) ). Rik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Is it possible that p would bid 4♣ on a void? It is not like he needs fitting honors in clubs, any club finesse is likely to work anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGF_Flame Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 the bidding in this situation are:5 something - i got much better shape then I showed. ex 7-4double - I have same or less shape than I showed before, and I got extra strenghpass - I dont have much to add. bidding 5 - when i already showed more shape then I got is very strange to me.double - make sense if I believe parters 4C to be a strong hand.pass - probebly what I would choose unless I really trust partner to be strong. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGF_Flame Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Is it possible that p would bid 4♣ on a void? It is not like he needs fitting honors in clubs, any club finesse is likely to work anyway. imo partner is likely to have club lengh not shortage for his bid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Both the problem and some of the comments could easily be a figment of Lewis Caroll's fevered imagination. Alice at the bridge table? Actually we have a double fit. Partner would not bid 4C without a fit in Ds. If you hover over the 4C bid you will also see that it is described as a fit bid, so I do not understand the comments of those who think it might be made on shortness anyway. Regardless, my D bid was very childish- the sort of pseudo expert bid made by someone trying to be smart and failing badly - and partner certainly has a right to expect more. (A 5 card suit coupled with appalling shape). I will pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Both the problem and some of the comments could easily be a figment of Lewis Caroll's fevered imagination. Alice at the bridge table? Actually we have a double fit. Partner would not bid 4C without a fit in Ds. Your last sentence is clear, partner will have diamonds. I can certainly follow people who are not sure whether partner has clubs. There is a big difference between:[hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1cp1s3dd(4%20spades%2C%20MIN)4c]133|100[/hv][hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1cp1h(Transfer)3d3s4c]133|100[/hv][hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1cp1h(Transfer)3dd(4%20spades%2C%20MIN)4c]133|100[/hv] In the first case, 4♣ is often a lead director since the 4♣ bidder will never be on lead.In the second case, 4♣ will never be a lead director since the 4♣ bidder will be on lead.In the last case (the actual one), it is unclear who will be on lead and I could imagine that one could play 4♣ as a lead directing fit bid, rather than a suit showing fit bid. (Both are fit bids.) It is even easier to imagine that a partnership may not have firm agreements about this. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 What does E-W have? What's 1♣? Natural or forcing club? What's X of 3♦? What's 4♠? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Your last sentence is clear, partner will have diamonds. I can certainly follow people who are not sure whether partner has clubs. There is a big difference between:[hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1cp1s3dd(4%20spades%2C%20MIN)4c]133|100[/hv][hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1cp1h(Transfer)3d3s4c]133|100[/hv][hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1cp1h(Transfer)3dd(4%20spades%2C%20MIN)4c]133|100[/hv] In the first case, 4♣ is often a lead director since the 4♣ bidder will never be on lead.In the second case, 4♣ will never be a lead director since the 4♣ bidder will be on lead.In the last case (the actual one), it is unclear who will be on lead and I could imagine that one could play 4♣ as a lead directing fit bid, rather than a suit showing fit bid. (Both are fit bids.) It is even easier to imagine that a partnership may not have firm agreements about this. RikRik, the bid was defined as a fit bid in the auction. A fit bid means I have C and a D fit. If I asked in a ftf game and was told a "Fit bid" and found tht pd had shortness, the director would be called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 What does E-W have? What's 1♣? Natural or forcing club? What's X of 3♦? What's 4♠? Look at the bidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Look at the bidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Looked at the bidding. Concluded that it is totally unclear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Did you bother to click on the yellow boxes to get the exact explanation. eg 1C might be 2 if bal, etc etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Probably my definition of fit bid was not best, in fact partner had more lead directing purposes this time than fit showing since he has ♣AQxx, nevertheless the important thing is that 4♣ shows the will to compete in diamonds. On this hand I didn't know what to do and made the worse: a slow pass. Partner passed although with ♦Kxxx he had a point for bidding on, not enterily clear though. 4♠ made 10, 5♦ would make 9 tricks in the minors. EDIT; 5♦ makes 10 tricks, parter is 1444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Is it possible that p would bid 4♣ on a void? It is not like he needs fitting honors in clubs, any club finesse is likely to work anyway. --helene_t *** I play lead-director included in what must be labeled "fit bid". (you must have some pithy for the bidding diagram)Partly to clarify later 'Lightner' doubles, eg: if I cudda shown my void, I wudda, so sumpin' else.So, yes that is possible for me - unusual conception of this hands layout, but possible, how are clubs sitting? 5 in 1C opener, partner void, 4 with 1H xfer.My question for any 'nuther' act is how much may partner have for his pass over 1C? 'trap pass' 17 bal? C-void with 9, but 2card spade?I can conceive no hand for him good enough to even suggest 5C-X-2 is cheap. I've already sky-rocketed over my hands value. I'm done.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Did you bother to click on the yellow boxes to get the exact explanation. eg 1C might be 2 if bal, etc etc?No, didn't know the yellow boxes could be clicked. Still don't know if opponents' patterns are flat,meaning no singletons or voids, or skewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Probably my definition of fit bid was not best, in fact partner had more lead directing purposes this time than fit showing since he has ♣AQxx, nevertheless the important thing is that 4♣ shows the will to compete in diamonds. On this hand I didn't know what to do and made the worse: a slow pass. Partner passed although with ♦Kxxx he had a point for bidding on, not enterily clear though. 4♠ made 10, 5♦ would make 9 tricks in the minors. Was this a joke game, Fluffy? I cannot believe anyone would bid 3D in a serious match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Just how many tricks do you think a favourable preempt at the 3 level shows? I just remembered, 5♦ actually makes 10 tricks, partner is 1444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Was this a joke game, Fluffy? I cannot believe anyone would bid 3D in a serious match? It's a bit warped, but seems eminently reasonable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 nevertheless the important thing is that 4♣ shows the will to compete in diamonds.Surely not Fluffy. A FSJ has a specific meaning. In this case we can safely assume partner has at least KQxxx in clubs. If the fit is a lead-directer instead then that has a direct effect on how partner should advance. Both conventions are powerful but different. Opposite a lead-directing 4♣, I am not even sure why this is a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I think both are the same mark, partner bid 4♣ here with lead directing purposes, however he knew I would take it as a fit bid and didn't care on the bidding as long as I led a club if we defended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 I expect more than 2-3 tricks in a live auction. Warped is an understatement unless this a joke game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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