Why raise the level?

[1eyedjack]

[hv=lin=pn|1eyedjack,~~M28391,~~M28389,~~M28390|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S34QAH7KD39QC4JQK%2CSTKH34TQAD67TC26A%2CS2578JH28JD258JC3%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%208%7Csv%7Co%7Cmb%7C1H%7Can%7CMajor%20suit%20opening%20--%205%2B%20H%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Can%7CSimple%20raise%20--%203%2B%20H%3B%207-10%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cd%7Can%7CTakeout%20double%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%203%2B%20D%3B%202-%20H%3B%204%2B%20S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Can%7C4%2B%20S%3B%209-%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7C5%2B%20H%3B%2011%2B%20HCP%3B%2012-17%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cd%7Can%7CTakeout%20double%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%203%2B%20D%3B%202-%20H%3B%204%2B%20S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4D%7Can%7CCue%20bid%20--%204%2B%20S%3B%207-%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7C3%2B%20C%3B%203%2B%20D%3B%202-%20H%3B%204%2B%20S%3B%2017-21%20total%20poin%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CC8%7C]380|270[/hv]

 

According to the explanation, South's second double confims a 9 card Spade fit. Why, then, with such weakness, does North not simply sign out in 3♠? Even if there were a risk on the bidding that South might have only 3 x ♠, should not North still bid 3♠, holding 5 of them?

[Bbradley62]

I'd be curious to know how strong North "thinks" South is for the second double. Does the description of that call include the info that South previously passed?

[georgi]

Second double shows: Takeout double -- 3+ ♣; 3+ ♦; 2- ♥; 4+ ♠; 17-21 total points

 

The fact 4♦ show cue is bad and it will be investigated for fix.

[Bbradley62]

Second double shows: Takeout double -- 3+ ♣; 3+ ♦; 2- ♥; 4+ ♠; 17-21 total points

Is this different than what would be shown by bidding 3♠ after 2♠?

[georgi]

3♠ shows 16+ TP and same shape. Should be a top range, but at the moment is not really limited.

 

Deducing 3♥ would show 18+, so 3♠ is probably 16-18, although not emphasized.

[1eyedjack]

Have I read this right?:

With 16-18, direct raise 2S to 3S to investigate possible game.

But with 21 (presumabky meaning greater interest in game), you have to pass 2S in the hope that the opponents bid again so that you can double?

[georgi]

With 21 you would bid

 

1♥ - p - 2♥ - X

p - 2♠ - p - 3♥

 

3♥ shows 18+TP and it's forcing to at least 3♠, although not 100%GF.

[1eyedjack]

Hi. My point is that earlier in the thread you said that the double of 3H in the actual auction on the OP (after first passing 2S) shows up to 21

[Bbradley62]

3♠ shows 16+ TP and same shape. Should be a top range, but at the moment is not really limited.

 

Deducing 3♥ would show 18+, so 3♠ is probably 16-18, although not emphasized.

So, South's pass should deny 16+; therefore, his second double should show something like 14-15 total points, not 16+?

[1eyedjack]

On the actual hand, GIB aside, I feel that my initial pass of 2S was correct.

Both opponents are bidding, partner could have a bust (indeed nearly did), he may have only 3 x S for 2S bid, and I don’t fancy assigning much value to the HK (OK that last may be beyond GIB).

West might yet have values that would have bid again had I not Doubled 2S.

Add it all up and yes, there is as outside chance of game our way, but a far greater chance that 2S is our limit. The dynamic changes a bit when 3H returns to me, but still on a lot of hands defending 3H will be right, and my decision to back in was not gold plated.

Bottom line is I don’t much like where this thread is going, if with this hand I am supposed to make an immediate move over 2S.

[Bbradley62]

On the actual hand, GIB aside, I feel that my initial pass of 2S was correct...

Bottom line is I don’t much like where this thread is going, if with this hand I am supposed to make an immediate move over 2S.

I agree that your initial pass of 2S was correct; my comments are to demonstrate that GIB's system/explanations are not internally consistent. There should be various non-overlapping options for South:

• weakest is to pass both 2♠ and 3♥
  
• next weakest is to pass 2♠ then take action over 3♥
  
• next is to bid 3♠ over 2♠
  
• strongest is to bid 3♥ over 2♠