passed hand in duplicate?

[spadebaby]

Today, our table was Passed Out.

 

The director was called over, and he came around and looked at everyone's hand.....

 

Yep...you guessed it....I was in 3rd seat...with only 10 points....and figured I would pass

and let the 4th seat make a bid and go from there.

 

I had 2 red kings and 2 black queens....a good support hand.

 

and then the 4th seat passed! Yikes.... I was told by a very experienced player that in duplicate...

the 4th seat must bid.

 

That is why I thought I was ok.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

[GreenMan]

Passouts are normal in duplicate. Anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant or lying.

[spadebaby]

Thanks

[billw55]

Yes, passouts happen once in a while. There is nothing unusual about it, and it is certainly not against the rules.

 

Out of curiosity, who called the director to your table, why, and what did she tell you?

[RunemPard]

Yes...wondering how the director got there...and even more curious as to why he is looking at the hands. :P

[ArtK78]

LAW 22

 

PROCEDURE AFTER THE AUCTION AND THE AUCTION PERIOD HAVE ENDED

 

A. End of the Auction

 

The auction ends when:

 

1. all four players pass, but see Law 25. The hands are returned to the board without play. There shall not be a redeal.

 

2. one or more players having bid, there are three consecutive passes in rotation subsequent to the last bid. The last bid becomes the contract, but see Law 19D.

 

[RSClyde]

LAW 22

 

PROCEDURE AFTER THE AUCTION AND THE AUCTION PERIOD HAVE ENDED

 

A. End of the Auction

 

The auction ends when:

 

1. all four players pass, but see Law 25. The hands are returned to the board without play. There shall not be a redeal.

 

2. one or more players having bid, there are three consecutive passes in rotation subsequent to the last bid. The last bid becomes the contract, but see Law 19D.

 

3. 7ntXX is reached.

[mikestar13]

Beware -- some club level players insist that a passed out hand on the first round of play can be redealt, notwithstanding the clear prohibition in the Laws. Call the director immediately if someone tries this. I once directed in a non-sanctioned game in a club where there were several club rules that contradicted the Laws--one of which allowed the redeal mentioned above. (Didn't make me happy, but I needed the money.) Never could get them to repeal this club rule--at least I got them to make the redeal mandatory rather than discretionary with the players (that practice allowed out and out cheating by more experienced though less ethical pairs).

 

 

Another chestnut from that club -- a rule that all psychics were illegal, non-offending side couldn't score worse than average+, offenders got an automatic zero.

[Antrax]

Beware -- some club level players insist that a passed out hand on the first round of play can be redealt, notwithstanding the clear prohibition in the Laws. Call the director immediately if someone tries this.

My club has this as a sort of house rule, except the hand must be redealt. It seems okay to me, I'm guessing when a human chooses random deals, he'll also tend to discard the ones that would be passed out.

[sfi]

3. 7ntXX is reached.

 

There's always the option of an insufficient bid to continue the auction...

[GreenMan]

My club has this as a sort of house rule, except the hand must be redealt. It seems okay to me, I'm guessing when a human chooses random deals, he'll also tend to discard the ones that would be passed out.

 

This actually biases the pool of hands that actually do get played. My partner and I open some 8-point hands and most 10-pointers, and we've chosen our system with some care. If we aren't at the first table to play that deal you're throwing out, we won't get to play it at all, and we won't get to enjoy the advantages (and drawbacks) of the work we've put into our partnership.

 

Unless everyone at your club plays the same system, there's no such thing as a deal that will be passed out at every table. Your method favors the standard systems against the nonstandard ones, not on their merits but capriciously. That's not bridge.

[helene_t]

This actually biases the pool of hands that actually do get played. My partner and I open some 8-point hands and most 10-pointers, and we've chosen our system with some care. If we aren't at the first table to play that deal you're throwing out, we won't get to play it at all, and we won't get to enjoy the advantages (and drawbacks) of the work we've put into our partnership.

 

Unless everyone at your club plays the same system, there's no such thing as a deal that will be passed out at every table. Your method favors the standard systems against the nonstandard ones, not on their merits but capriciously. That's not bridge.

Yes that's one problem. Another problem is that if I sit in 4th seat (or any seat for that matter) with a 4441 25-count, and I know that the hand is hopeless in our system (but easier to bid for the rest of the field that play Roman or Precision), I can just pass and expect to get a more benign hand instead.

[Endymion77]

Yes that's one problem. Another problem is that if I sit in 4th seat (or any seat for that matter) with a 4441 25-count, and I know that the hand is hopeless in our system (but easier to bid for the rest of the field that play Roman or Precision), I can just pass and expect to get a more benign hand instead.

 

Interesting, would that be classified as a psych?

[RSClyde]

There's always the option of an insufficient bid to continue the auction...

Is there really?

[RSClyde]

There's always the option of an insufficient bid to continue the auction...

Is there really?

[campboy]

Is there really?

Well, not the option because insufficient bids are illegal. But if there is an insufficient bid after 7NTxx (and I have seen an insufficient bid made at the 7-level before :)) it may be accepted, and if it is the auction does continue.

[billw55]

Another chestnut from that club -- a rule that all psychics were illegal, non-offending side couldn't score worse than average+, offenders got an automatic zero.

While you were there, did they have any arguments over what is or isn't a psyche?

[Antrax]

Unless everyone at your club plays the same system,

Pretty much, yes. I don't know if it's a rule or something, but I've never encountered even precision in club nights, let alone anything "weird". People play the Israeli take on SA or some flavor of 2/1.

[ArtK78]

3. 7ntXX is reached.

I can't believe that there are discussions of insufficient bids after 7NTxx.

 

The fact is that the auction does continue, and it ends with three passes.

 

For a while I assumed that everyone knew this, but from the later posts, I am not so sure.

[GreenMan]

Pretty much, yes. I don't know if it's a rule or something, but I've never encountered even precision in club nights, let alone anything "weird". People play the Israeli take on SA or some flavor of 2/1.

 

It's still no excuse. Just sayin'. :)

[RSClyde]

I can't believe that there are discussions of insufficient bids after 7NTxx.

 

The fact is that the auction does continue, and it ends with three passes.

 

For a while I assumed that everyone knew this, but from the later posts, I am not so sure.

It seems far from obvious that this would be the case. Why would the rules of duplicate bridge allow for a situation whose only possible outcome is irregularity? It may be well be the case that the auction "continues", I'm not familiar with the rule, but to act as if it's common sense is pretty far fetched.

[ArtK78]

It seems far from obvious that this would be the case. Why would the rules of duplicate bridge allow for a situation whose only possible outcome is irregularity? It may be well be the case that the auction "continues", I'm not familiar with the rule, but to act as if it's common sense is pretty far fetched.

Obviously you are not familiar with this rule. That is why I provided it for you.

 

As Law 22A(2) states that the auction does not end until there are three consecutive passes after the most recent bid, it is clear that the redouble of 7NT does not end the auction. In the case of 7NTxx, the most recent bid is 7NT, and there have not been three consecutive passes until they occur after the redouble. Until that happens, the auction has not ended.

 

The only possible outcome is not an irregularity. The only possible legal outcome is three consecutive passes. And then the auction is over.

 

I don't see why that troubles you.

[RSClyde]

Obviously you are not familiar with this rule. That is why I provided it for you.

 

As Law 22A(2) states that the auction does not end until there are three consecutive passes after the most recent bid, it is clear that the redouble of 7NT does not end the auction. In the case of 7NTxx, the most recent bid is 7NT, and there have not been three consecutive passes until they occur after the redouble. Until that happens, the auction has not ended.

 

The only possible outcome is not an irregularity. The only possible legal outcome is three consecutive passes. And then the auction is over.

 

I don't see why that troubles you.

I can bid an insufficient 1♦ and the opponents have the right to accept it. That's a legal outcome.

[Bbradley62]

The only possible legal outcome is three consecutive passes. And then the auction is over.

 

I don't see why that troubles you.

I can bid an insufficient 1♦ and the opponents have the right to accept it. That's a legal outcome.

And that still must be followed by three consecutive passes to end the auction. I also don't see why this troubles you.

[RSClyde]

And that still must be followed by three consecutive passes to end the auction. I also don't see why this troubles you.

That's probably because you snipped out most of the quote that I was responding to voiding it of context. So let me walk you through it slowly:

Art claimed that the only possible legal outcome following a 7ntXX bid was 3 consecutive passes. I pointed out that this is not the case because an insufficient bid could be made and accepted, and yes, it would still need to be agreed by 3 passes, what happened after the insufficient bid was not the point.