ATB - Two aggressive Xes

[mcphee]

I saw 2 poor dbles here, the one of 2H and the one of 4S. Many pairs play the re-dble shows a maximum and 3 or more trumps. Even so what did any of these dbles have other than noise?

[quiddity]

I'm going to mount a defence of this X, since I don't think the criticisms are giving the full story. The arguments against:

 

1) I might help declarer make his contract.

2) They might XX with a good H holding.

3) I might get partner to make a poor lead from such as Ax.

 

 

Another argument against: your hand can stand leads in the two unbid suits, and your hand is not strong enough to expect to have an entry even if you manage to set up the heart suit.

[billw55]

Ok: we did not end up defending 3NT.

True.

 

As it turns out, the heart lead was also entirely useless against 4♠ - in fact it is cold for 6 on any lead. So, no lead matters against 4♠, but a heart lead would be a big loser against 3NT. Did you know what contract you would be defending when you doubled 2♥?

[ArtK78]

Did you know what contract you would be defending when you doubled 2♥?

I am going to assume that this is a rhetorical question. But I bet he was hoping that the contract would be 2♥x.

[the hog]

Jinsky, it appears that you just like making noise in the auction. The x has no merit. Please don't post this in the expert forum.

[gszes]

I freely admit I do not care for the 2hx. I see little advantage to be gained and can forsee

some horrific consequences to be paid. There are many reason for this.

 

1. rho is a passed hand so if the opps are going to bid game rho is probably near the top

of ther hand which would mark p with 9-11 hcp. If the opps intnd to stop short of game

that extra power will be present in partner's hand but there is a limit. P did not x the 1n

which they probably would have done with 15+ balanced (although that might not be

possible due to your system constraints).

 

2. There is no danger the opps will subside in 2s unless you decide to let them. After the

completion of the transfer the bidding would go pass pass and you can now introduce

2n knowing your p probably has something like a balanced opening hand. This approach

(converting a 3c bid by p to 3d) will allow you to get both red suits into the action and not

focusing p attention solely on the somewhat weak heart suit.

 

3. The danger factor is huge if LHO can xx your 2h x to show a willingness to play 2h.

The opps may be close to making game anyway and they might be more than willing

to play a slightly inferior 2hxx vs bidding a sketchy game it their hands warrant it. Why

give them the opportunity??? Its not like your hearts are anything to write home about

as a lead director if partner is on lead.

 

4. Someday you will have a hand that actually contains hearts with maybe even game

possibilities and you will want to x but realize the futility of such an action when you

think back to your minimum standard for a 2h x. You will realize that the range for your

x is so huge your poor partner can never have any hope of making a rational decision

on how to proceed,

 

 

 

Since your p already realizes their 4sx was a bad idea no sense discussing it further.

stripe tailed ape sheesh like the opps were ever going to consider a slam with a

passed hand opposite a weak nt-------------------------------------------------------------

[Jinksy]

I freely admit I do not care for the 2hx. I see little advantage to be gained and can forsee

some horrific consequences to be paid. There are many reason for this.

 

Thanks for posting actual arguments.

 

1. rho is a passed hand so if the opps are going to bid game rho is probably near the top

of ther hand which would mark p with 9-11 hcp. If the opps intnd to stop short of game

that extra power will be present in partner's hand but there is a limit. P did not x the 1n

which they probably would have done with 15+ balanced (although that might not be

possible due to your system constraints).

 

His X would have been pens. Not sure why P's strength should be a deterrent, per se?

 

2. There is no danger the opps will subside in 2s unless you decide to let them. After the

completion of the transfer the bidding would go pass pass and you can now introduce

2n knowing your p probably has something like a balanced opening hand. This approach

(converting a 3c bid by p to 3d) will allow you to get both red suits into the action and not

focusing p attention solely on the somewhat weak heart suit.

 

I figured at these colours I'd rather get one suit in at a low level than 2 in at a higher level.

 

3. The danger factor is huge if LHO can xx your 2h x to show a willingness to play 2h.

The opps may be close to making game anyway and they might be more than willing

to play a slightly inferior 2hxx vs bidding a sketchy game it their hands warrant it. Why

give them the opportunity??? Its not like your hearts are anything to write home about

as a lead director if partner is on lead.

 

Yeah, I agree this is a factor, I just didn't think it likely enough to be a strong deterrent. We're not playing total points, so if other than this it's a positive expectation bid, I doubt this is enough to tip it over. Like I said, I still have the extra chance to pull to 3D if they do XX. Maybe I'm just underestimating the probability of this - but like I said, I had (later) justified reason to doubt these opps would find it even when it was right.

 

4. Someday you will have a hand that actually contains hearts with maybe even game

possibilities and you will want to x but realize the futility of such an action when you

think back to your minimum standard for a 2h x. You will realize that the range for your

x is so huge your poor partner can never have any hope of making a rational decision

on how to proceed,

 

If I'm unpassed, X would be values. When we're both passed hands I don't expect my P to drop me in game without consulting me first - he's got lots of encouraging bids in between here and 3H.

 

I'm not claiming the X was a good call, only that the arguments that it's a bad one don't are either off target, or an estimation of the likelihood of bad outcomes that seems too generous here - and no-one's posted any sort of counterargument against the arguments in favour of it.

 

stripe tailed ape sheesh like the opps were ever going to consider a slam with a

passed hand opposite a weak nt-------------------------------------------------------------

 

That was le sarcasme.

[Vampyr]

What exactly did the first double mean? Was it purely lead-directing, or did it suggest a sacrifice?

[Jinksy]

Vul on this auction I would assume lead/low level competition only.

[Jinksy]

At what point was the explanation of the XX given ? You might have had the possibility of a director call (I only get part of the explanation when I click on the bid, it's too long to see it all).

 

Totally missed this Q. At the end of the auction, S said it probably should have been alerted since it was agreeing Ss, but N didn't seem to have any idea what it meant (I don't remember at what point we asked him, but it was presumably before that). We didn't think it was worth seeking a ruling for N forgetting the system - I think that's just caveat emptor?

[the hog]

Thanks for posting actual arguments.

 

 

 

His X would have been pens. Not sure why P's strength should be a deterrent, per se?

 

 

 

I figured at these colours I'd rather get one suit in at a low level than 2 in at a higher level.

 

 

 

snipped

 

 

Which suit was that? The H are not good enough to be called a suit on their own. How would you deal with a xx?

[Fluffy]

South's 4♠ bid is breaking the laws, he noticed lack of alert on 2♥ XX and quickly went to support spades when a club raise is a much more appealing LA once spades have been raised.

 

Regarding the double of 2♥ the problem is that it acomplishes little, we don't need a heart lead, we like any lead partner makes that is not from nothing. Forcing him to lead a heart when any lead could be just as good is a bad idea. I wouldn't care much about 3NT when I hold singleton spade.

 

 

 

[Jinksy]

South's 4♠ bid is breaking the laws, he noticed lack of alert on 2♥ XX and quickly went to support spades when a club raise is a much more appealing LA once spades have been raised.

 

That never even occurred to me! I really should start being more mercenary at the table...

[lowerline]

If East's double is lead-directing the hearts aren't good enough. If East's double is take-out the hand is too weak.

Without an alert redouble should be a proposal to play there (2Hxx). But if North interpreted it that way he would have passed. Fuzzy enough to call the director.

West only has a penalty double if East's double was take-out and if it was matchpoints.

 

Steven