Teaching beginners

[Guest Jlall]

Recently I have been teaching a few classes to beginner players and have been using the Audrey Grant series. The main thing that I noticed is that most of what they learn is about bidding. Why is this? Additionally at I/N lectures in tournaments (I usually attend them lol) I notice that they are almost always about bidding or more specifically a convention. I think this is totally wrong.

 

To be able to bid you need to understand card play. You cannot effectively reach the best contracts if you cannot envision the play even at some primitive level. To be able to play the cards you do not need to understand the bidding. Also, a good declarer can make bad contracts more often than a bad declarer can make good contracts. It seems totally backwards to me that newer players learn bidding before card play. Not only that, if they learned bidding theory that would be one thing, but they learn conventions!!! The LAST thing people need to learn is conventions at that stage, they need to learn bridge.

 

When I first started playing, my father focused only on teaching me how to play the cards and count etc etc (largely because, and he will agree, his cardplay is much better than his bidding). Since he did this, I was able to pickup bidding much easier because I understood what it took to make a contract etc. I understood things like WHY I could upgrade for shortness etc.

 

So my question is, why is bidding focused on so much at the early stages?

[hrothgar]

When I am teaching bridge to new players I use a modified version of a Dutch game called "Easy Bridge". We "Play" as follows:

 

4 players are each dealt 13 cards.

 

Each player announces the strength of their hand using the "standard" 4-3-2-1 High Card Point Scale.

 

The "side" with the lowest HCP will defend...

The player with the highest HCP will declare...

 

Play is started by tabling dummy.

Declarer then determines what contract he wishes to play, chosing between:

 

1NT

2 of a major

3 of a minor

3NT

4M

5m

Any slam

Any grand slam

 

At this point in time, play commences as normal...

[nickf]

I wouldn't teach bidding for at least the first 3-4 lessons.

 

Beginners need to get cards in their hands to maintain interest not this theoretical bidding bulldust.

 

nickf

sydney

[Gerardo]

The "Minibridge" table on BBO is very similar to what Richard calls "Easybridge"

[jillybean]

The "Minibridge" table on BBO is very similar to what Richard calls "Easybridge"

Where is the "minibridge" table?

 

thanks

jillybean2

[han]

I absolutely agree, teaching complicated bidding structures is for people that are already hooked, not for true beginners. I think that Fred does a good job in his "learn to play bridge" software.

 

Lately I only teach friends who seem serious about learning the game. I tell them to download the software and work through some of it. After that, I take just take them to the bridge club for a duplicate game. My experience is that they find this very exciting, even though we lose bigtime.

 

(All my students were 20-30 years old, and quite daring)

[Gerardo]

Jilly:

It is one of the types available when you create a table.

[hrothgar]

The "Minibridge" table on BBO is very similar to what Richard calls "Easybridge"

Could someone provide the rules for Easybridge?

I'm embarassed to say that I never noticed this option before...

[jikl]

For me when teaching, bidding wasn't introduced until about the 3rd lesson.

 

Sean

[ArcLight]

Recently I've been playing in the BIL lounge.

The players there are beginner through intermediate.

 

I've noticed the following

 

1) absolutely no one there uses Count signals. A few use Attitude. (I am reduced to the point of considering buying a computer Bridge program so I can have someone to practice card reading and signaling with.)

 

2) Some people have a ton of conventions listed, yet they misapply them. Such as messing up a Blackwood response (or RKCBW). Or mistaking a splinter for a cue bid!

 

3) Not only are Ace underleads against a suit contract common, I've seen Ace underleads from AKxxx against a suit contract. (also undearleds from KQxxx against a suit contract)

 

4) People blasting into Blackwood without cue bidding, only to be set when they find they are off 2 Aces.

 

5) Few use standard carding, such as following with the lowest of touching honors from a sequence. Or leading 4th best (or whatever lead convention you like)

 

 

I see people sitting at on line lessons on some convention (seems like Jacoby 2NT is getting a lot of press), yet their card play is abysmal. Card play takes quite a bit of work. The conventions can be learned from on line articles, or books, or software. Concentrate on fundamentals.

 

I'd like to see much more emphasis on card play, and demphasizing learning a score of conventions.

 

1) use Attitude and Count signals, plus suit preference discards. You can try suit preference signals later.

 

2) learn to lead properly. RHO bids diamonds, I overcall Spades, they end up in 4 hearts. What does pard lead, holding Kxxx in Spades? Diamonds! Naturally declarer was delighted as it helped him establish the Diamonds.

 

3) Card properly, so pard can figure out what you and declarer have. I see people thinking they are clever with deceptive leads and carding, but in the long run its their defense that suffers as pard is mislead.

 

4) Read Bridge books (boring, too much work, books cost money, ...) If you want to reinvent the wheel go ahead. But reading a book like Victor Mollos Card Play Technique is a real eye opener. [then go ahead and try Bridge Master!].

I like the Mike Lawrence books but they are more work. The Marty Bergen books are entertaining and great for newer players.

In fact I'd say read Bill Roots "How to Defend a Bridge Hand" and "How to Declare a Beridge Hand". The Kantar books are also good, but forcus more on carding, and I think the Root books are better.

 

 

5) In addition to Bridge Master (which will teach you declarer play), try the Mike Lawrence software. I tried sitting in a BIL lecture, and I felt it took a great deal of time to cover material that was far better presented in Mike Lawrences software or books. I think the cl;ass would have been more beneficial if it was on carding, and watching a group play a hand, and have the misplays pointed out (not ridiculing the players).

[luke warm]

the last person who asked me to teach how to play, i directed to acbl.org and told him to download htpb... there's nothing i can say that isn't said there, and said better... when he finishes that, i told him to go to #2 htpb... all along the way i explain what i can when i can

[MickyB]

The "Minibridge" table on BBO is very similar to what Richard calls "Easybridge"

Could someone provide the rules for Easybridge?

I'm embarassed to say that I never noticed this option before...

Wow me neither...I've just found some unsuspecting people who joined then asked what minibridge is! You get a 10 point bonus for correctly saying how many HCP you have, then a declarer is picked in the same way as you suggested. It sounds like declarer can then pick any contract, although I haven't seen for myself that that is the case.

[MickyB]

Justin, I agree - There is no doubt in my mind that the best way to improve is to learn about cardplay. However...

 

I was a system addict when I started playing - I didn't know about transfers until my 3rd duplicate, but 2 months/10 sessions later I had switched from Acol to SA to Mini NT 5 card majors, and I was playing transfer responses to 1♣ and Rough Diamond (2♦ showing a weak hand at least 4-4 in diamonds and a major). It is hard to quantify how it affected both my understanding of natural bidding and my interest in the game, but it certainly had a positive effect on both. Now if someone at my university asks about a convention, I make it clear to them that it isn't really a part of improving their results. If they still want to know, then I will tell them. Of course, someone being paid to talk about a convention isn't going to advise people not to attend, particularly as novices tend not to realise how little they know about cardplay so may find this insulting.

[Dwingo]

The help file on Minibridge has this to say

 

 

Minibridge Tables

Minibridge is a form of the game developed in The Netherlands which is intended to get new players involved quickly. A player needs to know how to count points using the 4-3-2-1 point count system and to know how many tricks are required to fulfill a contract. The player does not need to know anything about a bidding system, but will be able to play and defend.

 

At a minibridge table, each player is given a hand and is asked how many high card points he has. The partnership gets 10 points for each correct answer. The player with the most points is then shown his partner's hand and asked what contract he would like to declare. This becomes the final contract and play begins.

 

 

I couldn't test this out as I couldn't get 4 people to sit and try it out

 

I was also unaware of this Minibridge option.

[junyi_zhu]

Recently I have been teaching a few classes to beginner players and have been using the Audrey Grant series. The main thing that I noticed is that most of what they learn is about bidding. Why is this? Additionally at I/N lectures in tournaments (I usually attend them lol) I notice that they are almost always about bidding or more specifically a convention. I think this is totally wrong.

 

To be able to bid you need to understand card play. You cannot effectively reach the best contracts if you cannot envision the play even at some primitive level. To be able to play the cards you do not need to understand the bidding. Also, a good declarer can make bad contracts more often than a bad declarer can make good contracts. It seems totally backwards to me that newer players learn bidding before card play. Not only that, if they learned bidding theory that would be one thing, but they learn conventions!!! The LAST thing people need to learn is conventions at that stage, they need to learn bridge.

 

When I first started playing, my father focused only on teaching me how to play the cards and count etc etc (largely because, and he will agree, his cardplay is much better than his bidding). Since he did this, I was able to pickup bidding much easier because I understood what it took to make a contract etc. I understood things like WHY I could upgrade for shortness etc.

 

So my question is, why is bidding focused on so much at the early stages?

I guess the reason is that memorizing conventions is easier than analizing. For an intermediate player, he can be satisfied if he learns some new conventions or understand the meaning of a popular convention in a class. However, if you want to teach him how to count, I don't think one class or 5 classes would be enough, and to improve one's playing, one has to work hard himself. However, learning bidding is somewhat like chasing the newest fasion. It's often not through your own analysis. You usually just follow what experts or theoretists say, what is modern, what is standard, not what is right, because few know what is right! Another issue, teaching somebody how to count is boring to many, and if you want to teach somebody how to squeeze or how to endplay, the main part is still how to count. If you can really count and analyze, you don't even need to know the theory to make the right play. Squeeze is just a way to play the cards in a right order and if you can analyze all the different order of playing, you don't need to know how to squeeze. Just like a computer program, which doesn't need to "learn" how to squeeze, all it need to do is to find the most probabal layout and find the double dummy way to solve this layout by going through all the different ways of playing. Certainly, it can be boring, both to teachers and students.

[pdmunro]

I went to the English Bridge Union website:

http://www.ebu.co.uk/ecpubdefault.asp?page...ching+Materials

and downloaded the file "MiniBridge teaching hands.pdf" (156 Kb), located about middle of the list.

 

It is arranged in sets of 4 deals. The 4 directions (WNES) get to play a hand with the same play feature: "high from shortage", "hold-up", etc..

 

This may be useful for teaching.

[sceptic]

I've noticed the following:

 

it is very hard to learn bridge online, it is extremely difficult to know how to play the cards correctly, it is very hard to play the cards correctly, when no one points out your mistakes.

 

Some people can't take advice given in the right context, so we rely on some excellent teachers in BIL who try to help us on our way to being better players. (call them saints if you like).

 

I do not think card play and signalling etc etc is as easy to learn as a convention, but there are some excellent teachers that try to help us all improve in BIL

 

now to my point if you did not think there was one.

 

I've noticed the following

 

1) absolutely no one there uses Count signals. A few use Attitude. (I am reduced to the point of considering buying a computer Bridge program so I can have someone to practice card reading and signaling with.)

 

2) Some people have a ton of conventions listed, yet they misapply them. Such as messing up a Blackwood response (or RKCBW). Or mistaking a splinter for a cue bid!

 

3) Not only are Ace underleads against a suit contract common, I've seen Ace underleads from AKxxx against a suit contract. (also undearleds from KQxxx against a suit contract)

 

4) People blasting into Blackwood without cue bidding, only to be set when they find they are off 2 Aces.

 

5) Few use standard carding, such as following with the lowest of touching honors from a sequence. Or leading 4th best (or whatever lead convention you like)

 

This is an interesting statement and I may be on the edge of misappropriating the use of the forum, BUT, I [disagree]

 

1/. NOT TRUE

2/. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN A BEGINERS INTERMEDIATE LOUNGE?

3/. LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OR PERHAPS IN NEED OF GUIDANCE

4/. WHAT IS A CUE BID?

5/. WE PLAY IN BIL SO WE CAN DO THIS SORT OF THING AND LEARN TOGETHER AND PLAY TOGETHER AND IMPROVE, WE ALL WILL IMPROVE IT TAKES TIME.

 

[last of post deleted]

Edited January 30, 2005 by inquiry

[cherdano]

Of course all that is said here is right and true...BUT

 

The BIL "students" know themselves what they enjoy to learn. They are not there to become Bermuda Bowl participants, but to have fun playing and learning the game. If they have more fun learning about Jacoby 2NT than to learn about the right way to play A432 opposite

Q765, then so be it. Of course, as teacher you can always try to push them a little into the direction where they will benefit most, but never push too hard. I would be upset, too, if someone told me I should forget about criss-cross squeezes and just learn how to protect against 4-1 trump splits.

 

[i also doubt very much that signaling is s.th. most BIL'ers need to learn urgently. If you are still busy to decide whether to play the king or play low, it takes quite some effort to also signal correctly if you are playing low.]

[badderzboy]

In addition to Waynes reply too!

 

Some of the comments re-inforce the purposes of the BIL - a place to LEARN and to make mistakes. There are some very good BILlies arclight and I would say you may have alienated any who read the forums!

 

 

1) absolutely no one there uses Count signals. A few use Attitude. (I am reduced to the point of considering buying a computer Bridge program so I can have someone to practice card reading and signaling with.)

 

Attitude is standard in pick-up ptrships hence the vast majority of the time it is also in MBC too! I can & do use them with regular ptrs in BIL! in specific circumstances so INCORRECT!

 

2) Some people have a ton of conventions listed, yet they misapply them. Such as messing up a Blackwood response (or RKCBW). Or mistaking a splinter for a cue bid!

 

Yes, the way to learn is by experience and getting something wrong is the best way to get it right and so do Adv+ I suspect!

 

The initial excitement of the game is I need all these gadgets then after a while you learn you rarely need them! Part of the learning curve and should be more prevalent in BIL so what?

 

3) Not only are Ace underleads against a suit contract common, I've seen Ace underleads from AKxxx against a suit contract. (also undearleds from KQxxx against a suit contract)

 

True, I see it in the classes I play in f2f too. I don't do it lol but once did People learn once you get burned by singleton Kings a few times...

 

4) People blasting into Blackwood without cue bidding, only to be set when they find they are off 2 Aces.

 

Cue-bidding is for experienced pairs not pick-up too much chance of misunderstanding !!!

 

5) Few use standard carding, such as following with the lowest of touching honors from a sequence. Or leading 4th best (or whatever lead convention you like)

 

Cannot agree at all with that comment !!! Most do

 

BIL is with Vugraph one of the best places on BBO which is the best place to play and learn this game especially given the opportunity to see new ideas and systems from elsewhere in the world!

 

Steve

[TimG]

So my question is, why is bidding focused on so much at the early stages?

I think there are a couple of simple reasons:

 

1) Bidding comes first in bridge, before you play the hand you have an auction; and

 

2) It's always been done this way, starting decades ago when bidding rules were much simpler.

 

Tim

[mcphee]

There is no doubt to me that understanding how to count is the single most important part of the game. A player that learns to count, will be 10 steps ahead of a player that "forgets the count". It is not as difficult as newer players think it is, what it simply means is you have to think a bit. Thinking players get better results.

 

As the original post points out, understanding card play helps understand what a final contract might be. Why NT on a particular hand NT may or may not be better than suit play.

 

Instructing players on methods has advantages. First it helps a player develop judgement about visualization of the values a hand has and to appreciate the asking and telling portion of the bidding is paramount to reaching contracts that have a chance to make. I feel that having a chance to make the contract is important to a players confidence. Understanding difficult card postions is not at all easy for many players. Not all players can be technicains or ever hope to be. This is not to say a particular player is not intelligent, IQ has zero to do with visualization and planning. Some people regardless of how intelligent they are, will never appreciate true card play and defence.

 

Part of every players bridge education is to learn to understand card combinations. The biggest thing that I notice is far too much time is spent teaching player to count HCP and learn rules. One of the greatest players in the world correctly said, "the game is a science, it's just not an exact science" Bob Hamman.

[jillybean]

Arclight, I have to agree with Wayne and Steve.

 

You are talking about the BIL, a welcoming place for beginners to play and learn, of course you are going to see a lot of mistakes! We’d do better playing at a table with Adv/Exp but that doesn’t happen too often in the MBC. We always need more mentors, people who would be willing to sit down and play with BIL'ies.

 

I don’t believe b/i’s learn signaling, leads, carding until much later on, my experience anyway. (I’m still waiting for my lesson on signaling :) )

 

I do agree on your comment about conventions, I love to collect them, it’s a way to show off. Our partners will do well to decipher the abbreviations let alone play them, (I can't!)

 

jillybean2

[ArcLight]

Concerning BIL (to rebuff sceptic, and badderzboy)

 

1) Count signals - for a while I asked people if they use them. Without exception no one did. Not a single one.

Despite what Sceptic or Badderzboy says I have never met anyone there who uses them. Maybe they use Count and play together, and are the only ones?

 

Badderzboy didnt read my post correctly, I said few use Attitude, not no one uses attitude. I’ve lead from AK and had pards play low when holding Qxx.

 

 

 

2) Some people have a ton of conventions listed, yet they misapply them. Such as messing up a Blackwood response (or RKCBW). Or mistaking a splinter for a cue bid!

 

 

BB>Yes, the way to learn is by experience and getting something wrong is the best way to get it right and so do Adv+ I suspect!

 

Conventions are best learned one at a time, not 10 at a time.

 

 

BB>The initial excitement of the game is I need all these gadgets then after a while you learn you rarely need them! Part of the learning curve and should be more prevalent in BIL so what?

 

So what? Try learning a few correctly. The initial excitement of the game for me is not learning a ton of conventions, its figuring out whats going on. Its realizing that that Q9xx is worth a lot because its sitting over the defender who has that suit. Its realizing you have an endplay, or a squeeze exists. Its about deductive reasoning, not a game of language.

 

 

Sceptic>2/. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN A BEGINERS INTERMEDIATE LOUNGE?

 

I expect them to be taught a few and then learn to use them well. I can accept mistakes, but if you are constantly messing up slam bidding, you should probably work on that, before trying to learn lots of other conventions. And learning Puppet Stayman is less important than signaling and carding correctly.

 

 

4) People blasting into Blackwood without cue bidding, only to be set when they find they are off 2 Aces.

 

BB2>Cue-bidding is for experienced pairs not pick-up too much chance of misunderstanding !!!

 

I completely disagree. Cue bidding is VERY VERY important. Slams are worth a lot. Work on cue bidding before learning Puppet Stayman, Jacoby 2NT, and inverted minors. Cue bidding isnt some magic, nor very difficult.

You can buy a decent book "Cue Bidding to Slams" by Klinger for $10 off overstock.com.

 

sceptic>4/. WHAT IS A CUE BID?

 

I’m not sure how to interpret your question. (at first I assumed it was a joke but I’m not sure).

A control showing bid, showing 1st and 2nd (and rarely 3rd) round control of a suit. Its the bread and butter of slam bidding, not just blasting into Blackwood.

(btw Blackwood himself used cue bidding!)

 

 

5) Few use standard carding, such as following with the lowest of touching honors from a sequence. Or leading 4th best (or whatever lead convention you like)

 

BB2>Cannot agree at all with that comment !!! Most do

 

No they dont. I see all sorts of random leads. Im not saying that no one cards correctly, just few do.

 

BB2>BIL is with Vugraph one of the best places on BBO which is the best place to play and learn this game especially given the opportunity to see new ideas and systems from elsewhere in the world!

 

Its better than others. But Im still disappointed that signaling and carding are not emphasized.

 

 

 

jillybean>

I don’t believe b/i’s learn signaling, leads, carding until much later on, my experience anyway. (I’m still waiting for my lesson on signaling )

 

Signaling is not rocket science. Try "How to Defend a Bridge Hand" by Bill Root.

Signaling will force you to pay closer attention to the game, and to develop good habits. Knowing 1000 conventions is less important than being able to count.

 

 

jb>I do agree on your comment about conventions, I love to collect them, it’s a way to show off. Our partners will do well to decipher the abbreviations let alone play them.

 

Its fun to learn some conventions, no doubtt about it. But I think it keep splayers from concentrating on the fundamentals, like carding and counting.

 

[end of post deleted]

Edited January 30, 2005 by inquiry

[sceptic]

Arc, may be we got off on the wrong foot, That was not a personal attack, I was defending the percieved low standards you have of BILies, or more to the point, I think your post was quite arrogant and if some of the people you have played with read that, I doubt they would want you sittiing at their table.

 

BILies = people who don't get it right, people that make mistakes, people that need guidance, most important people that are learning.

 

There is an interesting point from all this, though, I think play and defence is more interesting and more fun than conventions and I like to read about that side of the game rather bidding aspects

 

Unfortunately, Ben would ban me if I made a personal attack, so I won' be making one against you

 

(see edits ben did the earlier post...i was slow on this sorry guys, this was not a thread i was tracking - ben) :-)

Edited January 30, 2005 by inquiry

[Guest Jlall]

I understand that everyone has different motives to learn bridge. For many they just want to have fun in a social environment etc. Perhaps learning conventions is more fun, and counting is "work."

 

However, what about those who's goal is actually to become a decent player, capable of being able to win the occasional online tournament perhaps, or something like that. Do they KNOW that focusing on card play would be a better idea early on? Presumably they think whatever their teacher is teaching them is the "right" way to learn. If TimG is correct and bridge is taught in this way because that's how it has always been taught, maybe its time for some sort of reform.