Ruff and discard at trick 2

[jallerton]

[hv=pc=n&s=s63haj84d5ckqt653&n=saqj954ht7dtcaj74&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1sp2cp3d(Splinter)p3hp3sp4cp4sp6cppp]266|200[/hv]

 

West leads ♦A. East thinks for a while at trick 1 and then plays the 2.

 

West thinks for an even longer time and then leads ♦6.

 

East/West are a regular partnership of very strong players.

 

What do you do at trick 2 and why?

[Fluffy]

I had a bad experience years ago trying to get advantage of a gift like this, however the ruff and dsicard was played by RHO, who now I think would never ever risk it with a King over dummy's ace, this situation looks different.

 

Still on this one I have many things to worry about, and simply going for the spade finese makes the hand easy. So I would pitch a heart from dummy, finesse spades, and draw trumps.

 

This situation looks consistent with the blacks being 4-1 and 0-3, LHO cannot play a trump, doesn't like a heart, and finally a spade could be fatal if we have a void.

[Endymion77]

Throw a heart from dummy and ruff in hand, play for ♠K on. If you have just one option against normal defense, but the defense gives you another option, you should generally reject it, especially against good players.

[JLOGIC]

Agree strongly with spade finesse in this kind of spot. Admittedly he probably surprised he's giving a ruff/sluff but he's trying to tap dummy he's quite likely to have Kxxx of spades for that defense. The opps would have to have gone horribly wrong here if the spade is off and it seems unlikely from very strong players.

[wanoff]

Easts play is consistent with Kxxx spades and wishing to remove one of dummys entries. Or he might be bluffing without KS and trying to encourage you to switch lines.

Have a slight preference for the latter position since West with a singleton spade might just play a trump.

So will take a spade finesse at trick 2, draw trumps, and repeat the finesse.

 

On the bidding - what's the best way of playing 1♠-2♣-4♦ ?

[Endymion77]

On the bidding - what's the best way of playing 1♠-2♣-4♦ ?

 

Exclusion RKCB for clubs with a diamond void?

[jallerton]

If you have just one option against normal defense, but the defense gives you another option, you should generally reject it, especially against good players.

 

I was declarer and that was my first reaction.

 

However, I then had some more thoughts.

 

LHO didn't know he was giving me a losing option by conceding a ruff & discard. If lacking the ♠K, he might have reasoned that if his partner had that card and I had a doubleton, his partner would eventually score ♠K anyway. His focus may have been on trying to persuade me to misguess clubs if I was lacking ♣Q, or on making my communicatoions difficult.

Ruffing in hand gains against Kxxx with LHO. Ruffing in dummy wins against stiff K, Kx, Kxx and Kxxx with RHO, which was obviously a lot more likely a priori.

The opening lead marked RHO with a honour, but it took him a while to signal for a heart at trick one (this is a suit preference position for this pair). Could he have been thinking about signalling for a spade?

The opponents haven't bid when they hold an 11-card diamond fit with AKQJ. If spades were 4-1, it's more likely that one of then would have bid something.

 

So after some consideration, I ruffed in dummy and played ♠A, ruff a ♠. Was I mad? Was I insulting LHO?

[rhm]

I was declarer and that was my first reaction.

 

However, I then had some more thoughts.

 

LHO didn't know he was giving me a losing option by conceding a ruff & discard. If lacking the ♠K, he might have reasoned that if his partner had that card and I had a doubleton, his partner would eventually score ♠K anyway. His focus may have been on trying to persuade me to misguess clubs if I was lacking ♣Q, or on making my communicatoions difficult.

Ruffing in hand gains against Kxxx with LHO. Ruffing in dummy wins against stiff K, Kx, Kxx and Kxxx with RHO, which was obviously a lot more likely a priori.

The opening lead marked RHO with a honour, but it took him a while to signal for a heart at trick one (this is a suit preference position for this pair). Could he have been thinking about signalling for a spade?

The opponents haven't bid when they hold an 11-card diamond fit with AKQJ. If spades were 4-1, it's more likely that one of then would have bid something.

 

So after some consideration, I ruffed in dummy and played ♠A, ruff a ♠. Was I mad? Was I insulting LHO?

I have sympathy.

South was marked with the ♥A, even though the ♦2 probably suggested a heart switch.

West could not possibly expect giving a ruff and discard. So he was not aware giving declarer additional options that way,

Thus from West point of view success of the slam depended on bringing in the spade suit without loss.

Attacking the entries to the spades is the indicated defense.

For example:

[hv=pc=n&s=s6haj8d953ckqt653&w=s72hq653daj76c982&n=saqj954ht7dtcaj74&e=skt83hk942dkq842c]399|300[/hv]

 

Declarer can always succeed, but a diamond continuation puts a lot of pressure on declarer and to succeed he must play for an early ruffing finesse in spades. (diamond ruff, ♠A, ♠Q. If he ruffs a low spade first, he is down)

A heart continuation is more comfortable.

If you do not take advantages of gifts given by the defense on wrong guesses you are getting nowhere in this game.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mikeh]

I was declarer and that was my first reaction.

 

However, I then had some more thoughts.

 

LHO didn't know he was giving me a losing option by conceding a ruff & discard. If lacking the ♠K, he might have reasoned that if his partner had that card and I had a doubleton, his partner would eventually score ♠K anyway. His focus may have been on trying to persuade me to misguess clubs if I was lacking ♣Q, or on making my communicatoions difficult.

Ruffing in hand gains against Kxxx with LHO. Ruffing in dummy wins against stiff K, Kx, Kxx and Kxxx with RHO, which was obviously a lot more likely a priori.

The opening lead marked RHO with a honour, but it took him a while to signal for a heart at trick one (this is a suit preference position for this pair). Could he have been thinking about signalling for a spade?

The opponents haven't bid when they hold an 11-card diamond fit with AKQJ. If spades were 4-1, it's more likely that one of then would have bid something.

 

So after some consideration, I ruffed in dummy and played ♠A, ruff a ♠. Was I mad? Was I insulting LHO?

 

 

I like the way you analyzed the hand.

 

It is very easy to see the hand only from our perspective, and we 'know' that he has just given us an option otherwise unavailable to us, and so we will naturally infer that a strong opp has a reason for doing so.

 

Many years ago I read an indifferent book that contained only one nugget: when declarer, imagine that you are the defenders, and look at the hand from their perspective.

 

From West's perspective, he has no idea of the count in diamonds, since East had to give suit preference (not a criticism, since it's standard, I think, to do so here). In addition, S went slamming after hearing of a stiff diamond in dummy....this usually implies some diamonds that will be ruffed.

 

Then add that it is usually good technique, when looking at a dummy with a long suit and no entries outside trump, to shorten trump.

 

I confess, my first reaction was exactly as the earlier posts....I was looking to see 'why' a strong opp would give me a ruff sluff, rather than the more important question of whether he was doing so intentionally. I have no idea whether I would have seen that at the table: I read the other posts too quickly. As it is, I applaud your line and reasoning, even if it didn't work :D

[ggwhiz]

In my carding that I thought was consistently played the ♦2 suggests a heart card (or 2) and nothing more and that makes the 2nd diamond play hard to read. Definite error perhaps as is usually the case when they think before doing it but of what flavor?

 

Feels like ♠Kx(x) in the pocket or this desperation play does not compute. Shortening dummies trumps on this auction/holding is a red herring unless you have four of them.

[Fluffy]

The opponents haven't bid when they hold an 11-card diamond fit with AKQJ. If spades were 4-1, it's more likely that one of then would have bid something.

 

The oppents are at adverse with the bidding starting at the 2 level for them, I think that clue is not very strong on this deal, specially for spades to be 4-1 with 4 on left the bidding starts after a 2/1.

[1eyedjack]

From West's perspective, he has no idea of the count in diamonds, since East had to give suit preference (not a criticism, since it's standard, I think, to do so here).

Unconvinced by this. Is it standard to give suit preference signal against a slam in this situation? Certainly on this occasion a suit preference for (say) Spades is of more value to declarer than to West.

I would have thought that most of the time it will be obvious to West to which suit to switch if a switch is required, and information of more frequent benefit will be whether to switch at all or to continue Diamonds, for which purpose the count in that suit is going to be useful, and will also be of use on some hands where it doesn't matter whether (or to what) suit you switch, but you just need to be careful with your discarding on the run of trumps.

 

Not entirely relevant to the OP, because their signalling method will be known on enqulry (whether you trust the honesty of the signal is of course another matter).

[jallerton]

East's comment at the end of the hand made it clear that his trick 1 signal was suit preference.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s63haj84d5ckqt653&n=saqj954ht7dtcaj74&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1sp2cp3d(Splinter)p3hp3sp4cp4sp6cppp]266|200|

West leads ♦A. East thinks for a while at trick 1 and then plays the 2.

West thinks for an even longer time and then leads ♦6. East/West are a regular partnership of very strong players.

What do you do at trick 2 and why?[/hv]

Lacking ♠K, West is unlikely to take even a small risk of a ruff/sluff, in case East has ♠K. Hence, I like Fluffy, Endymion77 and JLOGIC's arguments that the ♠ finesse is declarer's best shot.

rhms's reconstruction requires declarer to keep to a tram-line in the play.

A rather convoluted quasi-legal point:

Suppose that, in fact, LHO lacks ♠K. If declarer has ♠K, then West's best remaining hope is that East holds ♥A, so West is likely to switch to ♥ -- no matter what East's signal means -- but especially if East follows to ♦A with ♦2 in tempo. A slow ♦2 by East might seem to deny ♥A, making alternative defences more attractive to West.

If West has ♠K, however, then he might judge it to be much more likely that South has ♥A. Assuming that East-West are ethical as well as expert, this might improve prospects for the ♠ finesse.

[wanoff]

Lacking ♠K, West is unlikely to take even a small risk of a ruff/sluff, in case East has ♠K. Hence, I like Fluffy, Endymion77 and JLOGIC's arguments that the ♠ finesse is declarer's best shot.

rhms's reconstruction requires declarer to keep to a tram-line in the play.

A rather convoluted quasi-legal point:

Suppose that, in fact, LHO lacks ♠K. If declarer has ♠K, then West's best remaining hope is that East holds ♥A, so West is likely to switch to ♥ -- no matter what East's signal means -- but especially if East follows to ♦A with ♦2 in tempo. A slow ♦2 by East might seem to deny ♥A, making alternative defences more attractive to West.

If West has ♠K, however, then he might judge it to be much more likely that South has ♥A. Assuming that East-West are ethical as well as expert, this might improve prospects for the ♠ finesse.

 

Back in the real world, declarer has the ♥A and tapping dummy is the normal defence for anyone who's played before.

We can take the ruff and sluff out of the equation as that wasn't envisaged, and Jallerton was left with close to a 50/50 guess.

Didn't follow the tempo stuff......basically spades are out so ♦2 says not hearts. Since a diamond is marked, there's a case for count.

[jallerton]

I like the way you analyzed the hand.

 

It is very easy to see the hand only from our perspective, and we 'know' that he has just given us an option otherwise unavailable to us, and so we will naturally infer that a strong opp has a reason for doing so.

 

Many years ago I read an indifferent book that contained only one nugget: when declarer, imagine that you are the defenders, and look at the hand from their perspective.

 

From West's perspective, he has no idea of the count in diamonds, since East had to give suit preference (not a criticism, since it's standard, I think, to do so here). In addition, S went slamming after hearing of a stiff diamond in dummy....this usually implies some diamonds that will be ruffed.

 

Then add that it is usually good technique, when looking at a dummy with a long suit and no entries outside trump, to shorten trump.

 

I confess, my first reaction was exactly as the earlier posts....I was looking to see 'why' a strong opp would give me a ruff sluff, rather than the more important question of whether he was doing so intentionally. I have no idea whether I would have seen that at the table: I read the other posts too quickly. As it is, I applaud your line and reasoning, even if it didn't work :D

 

Thanks. The good news is that my line did work. LHO held 10xx Kxxxx Axxxx void. RHO was not happy, describing his partner's failure to switch to a heart as "insulting". Even very strong players make mistakes (at least on a double dummy basis) sometimes;one practical problem in bridge is diagnosing when to play for them to have done so.

[JLOGIC]

I agree with your RHO lol.

[wanoff]

Thanks. The good news is that my line did work. LHO held 10xx Kxxxx Axxxx void. RHO was not happy, describing his partner's failure to switch to a heart as "insulting". Even very strong players make mistakes (at least on a double dummy basis) sometimes;one practical problem in bridge is diagnosing when to play for them to have done so.

 

Maybe RHO was unhappy with himself.....................having realised that he'd relinquished 2 chances to show diamonds.

On a good day he might declare 5♦ or if the oppo save in 6♣, partner will defend differently.

[ahydra]

Maybe RHO was unhappy with himself.....................having realised that he'd relinquished 2 chances to show diamonds.

On a good day he might declare 5♦ or if the oppo save in 6♣, partner will defend differently.

 

Agree about bidding - he has, what, Kx Qx KQJxxx xxx. OK, so maybe it's not quite enough for a vul overcall (though I would make it, mainly because I like to bid, but also because I have a nice suit I want led and a well-placed SK) - but surely he could double 3D. West might well bid 5D over 3H now.

 

If North goes on to 6C (I imagine he would), then West might now well consider he could be giving a ruff/discard at trick two and would perhaps play it safer with a spade switch.

 

ahydra