does 1C (P) 1S (P) 3C deny 4 hearts?

[dboxley]

K

KT9x

Qx

AK9xxx

 

Rate the rebids after 1C (P) 1S (P):

2C

2H

3C

 

Regardless of this particular hand, should a 3C rebid deny 4 hearts?

[Lord Molyb]

I think 3♣ is fine, hand is a bit weak for a reverse

[P_Marlowe]

Depending how strong you play your reverses, 3C should deny 4hearts,

see MikeHs post about reverses, there are various camps out there.

 

I belong in the camp, that makes reverses on weaker hand, than average.

 

Anyway, most of the time, the req. for a jump rebid and for making a

reverse bid are the same, the bids show just different handtypes.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I would move the post to a different section of the forum.

[mcphee]

For most the jump rebid of their suit shows about 7 or 7/12 playing tricks and is single suited. It is not a hand that is without some defensive values and in terms of hc strength shows about 16-18, unsuitable to open NT or make a jump rebid in NT. IT is Non Forcing.

 

Passing up the opportunity to show a reasonable 4 card major and choosing a NF 3C could give up a heart game. For example partner having no fit in clubs being 5/4 in the majors may pass. Responder should not think the opening hand holds hearts imo. A case might be made when the H suit is really poor, and the opening hand is nervous partner will pass 2C and they have 6 running C tricks with a side ace. K xxxx Ax AKQxxx although this hand might choose to rebid 2NT.

 

On the hand shown I like rebidding a simple 2C, its not worth reversing, at least not for me.

[dboxley]

Depending how strong you play your reverses, 3C should deny 4hearts,

see MikeHs post about reverses, there are various camps out there.

 

I belong in the camp, that makes reverses on weaker hand, than average.

 

Anyway, most of the time, the req. for a jump rebid and for making a

reverse bid are the same, the bids show just different handtypes.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I would move the post to a different section of the forum.

 

I agree with your response but disagree with your suggestion to post to a different forum. I wanted expert opinions.

[wyman]

I agree with your response but disagree with your suggestion to post to a different forum. I wanted expert opinions.

 

Do you think people posting to N/B want their questions answered by N/B's?

[benlessard]

2C = totally normal

2H= too agressive for my taste

3C = atrocious (clubs arent not good enough, the hand is not strong enough & you have 4H)

 

3C denies 4H pure and simple. You should just play that the cheapest bid after a reverse is 5-7 pts and everything else is GF. Simple, elegant and one of the best method anyway.

 

1C-1S

2H-2S (any shape not GF)

3C = 4H+6C 16-18 pts

[dboxley]

Do you think people posting to N/B want their questions answered by N/B's?

 

I see your point but how many experts even read the n/b forum? Just because a poster doesn't have 75 dots after his/her name does not mean he/she is a novice. It just means he/she doesn't spend all of his/her time posting to these forums.

 

Whew! Got that off my chest.

[dake50]

Would 2D = new minor force handle the hands with 4xH?

Thus 3C denies 4xH.

[wyman]

I see your point but how many experts even read the n/b forum? Just because a poster doesn't have 75 dots after his/her name does not mean he/she is a novice. It just means he/she doesn't spend all of his/her time posting to these forums.

 

Whew! Got that off my chest.

 

A lot of experts read n/b, and a lot read I/a.

 

The experts that think answering n/b an I/a questions in those forums is beneath them are also not going to answer them here.

 

And it's worth having a place for experts to discuss things among themselves (we can read too of course) so that they get value from the forums. If all they are doing is providing value, eventually all but a few will leave. I fear that this has started happening already.

 

Just my $0.02.

[Trinidad]

The 3♣ jump rebid and the reverse have the same lower limit, let's say 16 HCP. The jump rebid shows 16-18, the reverse about 16-21.

 

I wouldn't call your hand strong enough for a reverse or a jump rebid, but let's say that we make it a little bit stronger to meet the requirements. Then a reverse promises 5♣ and 4♥. The jump rebid promises 6♣. What you do with 6 clubs and 4 hearts is a matter of partnership style.

 

I play that a jump rebid denies a 4 card side suit, so I would reverse with 4-6. I think that is fairly standard, but certainly not universal. One of the most important reasons to prefer the reverse, is to find a heart game.

 

However, if you play Reverse Flannery responses to the 1m openings¹, it is unlikely that you will have a 4-4 heart fit. Then you could play that you will emphasize your 6 card club suit by bidding 3♣ instead of reversing into hearts.

 

So, the rest of your system does have an influence here.

 

FWIW, I agree that this doesnot belong in the expert forum.

 

Rik

 

¹ In Reverse Flannery responses, the sequences 1m-2♥/2♠ promise 5 spades + 4 hearts and less than an opening.

[gnasher]

3♣ denies a heart suit. In strength, 3♣ has the same lower limit as 2♥. If you have the values for 3♣ but you have four hearts, you should bid 2♥. I think that's competely standard.

 

I think this is a normal 2♥ bid. The extra club and the prime high cards make up for any deficiency in high cards.

[RSClyde]

I prefer to play that it denies hearts. It's a bit much to play that the reverse has a little stronger lower limit and so some hands should just bid bypass the suit and jump rebid instead: a subtle strength disparity is hardly a good cause for rejecting a systematic distributional bid. I would just bid 2♣ with the hand given: it's a little trashy.

[RSClyde]

3♣ denies a heart suit. In strength, 3♣ has the same lower limit as 2♥. If you have the values for 3♣ but you have four hearts, you should bid 2♥. I think that's competely standard.

 

I think this is a normal 2♥ bid. The extra club and the prime high cards make up for any deficiency in high cards.

I don't think a stiff K and a doubleton Q are what I would call "prime".

[the hog]

I agree with Ben Lessard. This is a 2C bid. It is not a 3C bid and definitely not a 2H reverse. That is worth a zero.

[rmnka447]

Add me in as a plus one more for benlessard comments.

 

I think the hand is only worth a 2 ♣ rebid. Stiff Ks and doubleton Qs are worth something, but not full point value unless partner has bid their suit. Most really good players I know then would call this a "bad" 15 count hand. So, given a choice of bids, they would be pessimistic and chose the bid promising less.

 

If the hand were something like ♠ x ♥ KJ10x ♦ Ax ♣ AK9xxx, you still have 15 HCP. However, the long suit have honors in combinations and have supporting intermediates -- very positive factors. So here good players would call this hand a "good" or possibly "really good" 15 and tend to bid it like a more aggressively. I'm pretty sure most would reverse into 2 ♥ with it.

 

One final thought, it's usually easier to show added value for a hand later in the bidding than it ever is to convince partner you have less than you originally showed.

[lowerline]

K

KT9x

Qx

AK9xxx

 

Rate the rebids after 1C (P) 1S (P):

2C

2H

3C

 

Regardless of this particular hand, should a 3C rebid deny 4 hearts?

 

 

I prefer 2♣ with this hand. But a hand that is strong enough for 3♣ is also strong enough for 2♥ IMHO. So yes, 3♣ denies 4 hearts.

 

Steven

[benlessard]

Also nobody mentionned it but AK9xxx is a terrible suit. Ive seen declarer jumping to 3 here and get double or play 3nt and they werent able to established the club suit.

 

AKT9xx make a lot of difference since Hx or stiff Q,J are going to be pretty frequent.

[jallerton]

Also nobody mentionned it but AK9xxx is a terrible suit.

 

Probably because a suit which is likely to play for six tricks opposite Qx from partner is nowhere close to "terrible".

 

J8xxxx is an example of what most people might consider to be a terrible suit.

[ahydra]

Probably because a suit which is likely to play for six tricks opposite Qx from partner is nowhere close to "terrible".

 

J8xxxx is an example of what most people might consider to be a terrible suit.

 

Agree! AK9xxx is more than adequate to jump-rebid, providing the rest of the hand is good enough.

 

But it would deny four hearts, and hiding a major is a criminal offence in some places. 2C on this; swap one K for an A and I would bid 2H, never 3C.

 

ahydra

[benlessard]

Probably because a suit which is likely to play for six tricks opposite Qx

 

if partner got Qx hes going to be very agressive to make a courtesy raise so you shouldnt missed many games anyway.

 

I would be afrid partner got

 

Axxxx

xx

Jxxx

Qx

 

but anything more than this and partner will bid 3C. IMO the range of hand where 3C is terrible is a lot higher than the hand you re going to miss game if you only bid 2C.