4th suit or 4-card suit?

[lycier]

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1dp1hp1sp]133|100[/hv]

 

I and my friends play 2/1 with walsh respond,however what is 1♠? 4th suit or 4-card suit? We happened a heated argument.

now, how do you think of 1♠?

 

Thank you very very much.

 

lycier

[MrAce]

Please not this topic again.

 

Check BBF u will find all of this

[Endymion77]

It's Fourth Suit Forcing, not spades. Why would you have a heated argument over a conventional sequence?

[P_Marlowe]

It can be nat., it can be art., it can be both.

Make an agreement and live with it.

 

If you play Walsh, and agree to play 1S as nat.,

the implication is 1S is gf.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[dboxley]

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1dp1hp1sp]133|100[/hv]

 

I and my friends play 2/1 with walsh respond,however what is 1♠? 4th suit or 4-card suit? We happened a heated argument.

now, how do you think of 1♠?

 

Thank you very very much.

 

lycier

 

I think the consensus is that 1S is natural and forcing for one round, and 2S is artificial and forcing to game.

[BillHiggin]

I think the consensus is that 1S is natural and forcing for one round, and 2S is artificial and forcing to game.

Given the op assertion that they play walsh responses, then it most certainly is NOT both natural and only forcing for one round.

I thought the more common agreement was 1S as artificial FSF and 2S as natural and GF - the other way around is also playable, but certainly responder would have skipped the 1D bid holding 4 spades and less than GF values (some may have a different threshold for walsh, but that would have been mentioned).

[JLOGIC]

 

I thought the more common agreement was 1S as artificial FSF and 2S as natural and GF - the other way around is also playable

 

It's one of those things that sounds like it makes sense... that 1S should deny and 2S should show or the other way around, but really there is no need to be bidding 2S with either of those hand types. Just bid 1S with your GF hands ambiguous about spades. If you happen to have a spade fit, your partner will bid 2S showing 4 and you will bid 3S, you have lost nothing compared to bidding 2S with spades and having partner raise to 3 with a fit.

 

On the other hand, if opener does NOT have 4 spades, you have gained a lot, the whole 2 level in fact. Opener can make a natural bid 1 level lower. There is no need to preempt yourself with a GF hand whether it has 4 spades or not. Being able to make a GF 1S bid should be a wet dream.

 

So if you play that you bypass diamonds unless you have a GF hand, take advantage of it and always bid 1S when you have a GF. This has the additional advantage of freeing up 2S to mean something that will actually be useful.

[JLOGIC]

Alternatively of course you can go to the darkside and play 1S like lebensohl, with 1N/2C/2D/2H all being constructive. This is helpful when partner has extras and doesn't need to drive to 2N or the 3 level (or feels safe doing so), after all your ranges are so massive in natural if it goes 1C 1D 1H 1N or 1C 1D 1H 2C or 1C 1D 1H 2D, opener is 11-18 and responder is 4-10 or whatever, so using 1S to alleviate this problem makes sense. You can then use 1S followed by 2S+ for some of the GF hands and use a direct 2S for the others. You will still be losing space on the GF hand types though, but since some people are happy to give up space on their own by playing 2S shows a GF hand with spades, I guess they don't care about that problem so much!

[Finch]

It's one of those things that sounds like it makes sense... that 1S should deny and 2S should show or the other way around, but really there is no need to be bidding 2S with either of those hand types. Just bid 1S with your GF hands ambiguous about spades. If you happen to have a spade fit, your partner will bid 2S showing 4 and you will bid 3S, you have lost nothing compared to bidding 2S with spades and having partner raise to 3 with a fit.

 

On the other hand, if opener does NOT have 4 spades, you have gained a lot, the whole 2 level in fact. Opener can make a natural bid 1 level lower. There is no need to preempt yourself with a GF hand whether it has 4 spades or not. Being able to make a GF 1S bid should be a wet dream.

 

So if you play that you bypass diamonds unless you have a GF hand, take advantage of it and always bid 1S when you have a GF. This has the additional advantage of freeing up 2S to mean something that will actually be useful.

 

we used to play 2S as invitational with exactly 3 clubs ('used to' because we now play T-Walsh). This meant you play in 2NT when partner is 4414 but in 3C when partner is unbalanced. And is helpful if opener has a strong hand because you know of the club fit at a lower level.

Or you could play it as INV+ with exactly 3 clubs.

[aguahombre]

There are other choices available for 2S, once (as Justin states) we don't need it to show spades or an unclear G.F.

 

We choose it to be limited but G.F. for hearts and a Splinter.

 

1C-1D

1H-2S (1H=unbalanced, but below J.S. rebid).. 2S= X AJXX KQJXX QXX or similar).

 

2H=G.F. as well by inference of Walsh style responses, but not limited or picturesque.

[JLOGIC]

we used to play 2S as invitational with exactly 3 clubs ('used to' because we now play T-Walsh). This meant you play in 2NT when partner is 4414 but in 3C when partner is unbalanced. And is helpful if opener has a strong hand because you know of the club fit at a lower level.

Or you could play it as INV+ with exactly 3 clubs.

 

Yes, that certainly seems useful. I was thinking the same also would be even better for people who might bid 1H with *gasp* 4432 and nothing in spades. I won't get started on that rant :P

[cherdano]

Yes, that certainly seems useful. I was thinking the same also would be even better for people who might bid 1H with *gasp* 4432 and nothing in spades. I won't get started on that rant :P

As a side note, in the UK everyone seems to rebid 1NT with a weak NT over 1x-1red.

[Lurpoa]

What seemed to a repeat of old discussions, became very interesting when JLOGIC gave his opinions !

Yes, very interesting and three upvotes for my friend.

 

Be the ♥ with You, JLOGIC !

[PhilKing]

It could be my imagination, but I think the font size is increasing ever other post.

[MrAce]

(text deleted by administrator)

 

☂ ☂ ☂

 

Last time i wrote "what were you smoking when you bid that" Inquiry told me that in BBF we are not allowed to imply anything or say anything regarding the mental state of another person. But since you opened this door already in this topic, (material deleted by inquiry)

Edited November 5, 2013 by inquiry

[lycier]

Supose 2S is 4th :

[hv=pc=n&s=s42h975dakqj97c76&n=sk93hqj84d2cak852&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1dp1hp2sp2np3nppp]266|200[/hv]

Now you get the best spot.

[hv=pc=n&s=s42h975dakqj97c76&n=s963hkqj4d2cak852&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1dp1hp2sp3cp3dp]266|200[/hv]

how to do next?

 

If you can't agree to these sequences,you can have a try to use XYZ.

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1dp1hp2c(relay%20to%202d)p2d(forced)p3d(invitional)ppp]133|100[/hv]

I think all pass after 3♦ was reasonable.

 

the problems are:

1- protected card

2- who is best delarer?

3- how to look for the best contrct with adequate room?

For me, I would like to define 1♠ as 4th so as to look for best contract with adequate room,but 2♠ as 4 card with game force.