14 cards in dummy

[McBruce]

(Good TDs make sure that two subsequent boards will not have the same color for the backs of the cards.)

 

 

 

I do preduplicating at many large ACBL tournaments. The same boards come back to me several times over the course of the week. Because almost all tournaments end with a Swiss teams, at the start of every tournament I have the same problem, one that returns whenever there is a Swiss teams during the week. I do whatever I can to ensure that no two consecutive boards will have the same card backs and in fact try to make groups of three have different colours. But when the players themselves pull out the cards to shuffle, for Swiss Teams (which as noted is almost always shuffle and play in the ACBL) usually all four players work on the process at once, pulling out cards from a board, shuffling and dealing, then looking about for an empty board to place the cards in...which quite often is NOT the board they pulled those cards from. The result is that after a pair game, when I get the boards back, I can be fairly confident that the cards will be different colours in each group of three boards. When I get a set and boards 1-12 have backs of blue, blue, blue, black, black, green, green, red, red, green, red, black -- it is clear that a Swiss teams has happened somewhere...

[blackshoe]

When I'm shuffling for a Swiss, I do try to remember to make sure the boards have alternating back colors, particularly when I'm north. I don't always succeed though. Particularly when we arrive at the table and "we've already made the boards." :(

[pran]

I do preduplicating at many large ACBL tournaments. The same boards come back to me several times over the course of the week. Because almost all tournaments end with a Swiss teams, at the start of every tournament I have the same problem, one that returns whenever there is a Swiss teams during the week. I do whatever I can to ensure that no two consecutive boards will have the same card backs and in fact try to make groups of three have different colours. But when the players themselves pull out the cards to shuffle, for Swiss Teams (which as noted is almost always shuffle and play in the ACBL) usually all four players work on the process at once, pulling out cards from a board, shuffling and dealing, then looking about for an empty board to place the cards in...which quite often is NOT the board they pulled those cards from. The result is that after a pair game, when I get the boards back, I can be fairly confident that the cards will be different colours in each group of three boards. When I get a set and boards 1-12 have backs of blue, blue, blue, black, black, green, green, red, red, green, red, black -- it is clear that a Swiss teams has happened somewhere...

 

Quite interesting information, but for a different reason: What is the expected life of your card packs?

 

I have been supplying machine-dealt boards since 1990 with the same boards being re-dealt and used about 50 times a year. We have an absolute rule that my customers may never shuffle and deal boards manually. My experience is that I shall have to replace boards after some 20 to 25 years, and I believe other suppliers of machine dealt boards have similar experiences.

 

Compare that to the expected life of cards in clubs where they shuffle and deal cards manually for each event, they typically have to replace their cards each year or so.

 

So whatever event, Swiss or otherwise, my customers receive and use machine-dealt boards for the complete events. In the long run that pays off for everybody.

[barmar]

But when the players themselves pull out the cards to shuffle, for Swiss Teams (which as noted is almost always shuffle and play in the ACBL) usually all four players work on the process at once, pulling out cards from a board, shuffling and dealing, then looking about for an empty board to place the cards in...which quite often is NOT the board they pulled those cards from.

In my experience, they put them back in the board right in front of them, which is usually the one they took them out of.

 

However, there are some of us who intentionally swap boards while this is going on. We try to arrange for the last board to be dealt to have the lowest number, so they can simply slide the cards to the players, or deal them directly to the players, instead of putting them in the board just to have them immediately removed. I admit is technically illegal. Try and stop me. :)

[blackshoe]

According to the folks responsible for our duplimate machine here, "we are lucky to get three years" out of a deck of cards. At our games, food of some kind is available throughout the game, so that may be the difference.

[hautbois]

What is the argument for low variation on card backings. Why aren't there unique backings for each of the 36 decks in a set of boards? Is there some fear that if the backings aren't the one style of league branded cards the decks might be stolen or replaced with marked cards?

 

Take it further and there's a marketing opportunity for sponsors to donate cards.

[pran]

What is the argument for low variation on card backings. Why aren't there unique backings for each of the 36 decks in a set of boards? Is there some fear that if the backings aren't the one style of league branded cards the decks might be stolen or replaced with marked cards?

 

Take it further and there's a marketing opportunity for sponsors to donate cards.

 

It does occationally happen that a single card in a pack becomes destroyed or lost and must be replaced.

 

First time this happens you end up with 51 spare cards available for future replacement needs, thereafter you have spare cards available for a long time to come.

 

Oops! Did you say 36 different back sides? Sorry mate, then you will have to keep track of some 1800 spare cards. Forget it, just trow the incomplete pack in the bin and buy a new complete pack of cards.

[pran]

According to the folks responsible for our duplimate machine here, "we are lucky to get three years" out of a deck of cards. At our games, food of some kind is available throughout the game, so that may be the difference.

 

WOW! (Manual shuffling is what really wears on the cards. Number two cause is soaking the cards with coffee, beer etc.)

[blackshoe]

WOW! (Manual shuffling is what really wears on the cards. Number two cause is soaking the cards with coffee, beer etc.)

Apparently we're doing something wrong. Wish I knew what it was. <shrug>

[aguahombre]

We should get the Duplimate package complete with the open-up boards for the cards. In 67 years, we will have paid for it by not purchasing new decks.

[Vampyr]

Particularly when we arrive at the table and "we've already made the boards." :(

 

I had this experience once or twice while playing at the Nationals last summer. However, I always made the boards again.

[pran]

Particularly when we arrive at the table and "we've already made the boards." :(

I had this experience once or twice while playing at the Nationals last summer. However, I always made the boards again.

And Your attitude is fully justified:

 

A member of each side should be present during the shuffle and deal unless the Director instructs otherwise.

True, this Law says "should", but then we have

 

1.If it is ascertained before the auction first begins on a board that the cards have been incorrectly dealt or that during the shuffle and deal a player could have seen the face of a card belonging to another player there shall be a new shuffle and deal. [...]

and there can be no doubt that unless a member of each side was present during the shuffle and deal a player could have seen the face of a card belonging to another player !

[barmar]

What is the argument for low variation on card backings. Why aren't there unique backings for each of the 36 decks in a set of boards?

Card manufacturers weren't willing to shell out for the Deluxe Crayola set.

[mycroft]

In the ACBL, that should is more strong, by regulation: "Unless instructed otherwise by a tournament director, a member of each side must be present and seated before cards are removed from a board." General Conditions of Contest for All Events, PLAY, 9.

 

That doesn't stop our teams players from being "helpful" and shuffling while they're waiting for the teams playing there the next round - leaving a card of some sort saying "Shuffled". Which has led to "helpful" things like a 4-board (out of 9) match, when the boards had been placed on a chair by the team there round 7, and a scoreslip had fallen on it, upsidedown, that read "Shuffled". "We didn't do it, it's not our fault!" "You're right, you didn't do it. That's what makes it your fault. But since neither side shuffled the hands, I'm just throwing them out. I could, of course, fine both sides 3 IMPs/board that was unplayable, but that seems excessive."

 

Between that, and the boxed cards, and the "we disagree on how many tricks were taken. Of course, the board's been shuffled, so we can no longer check." and the "why aren't they shuffled" at our (stationary) table, I am *so happy* about this local practise.

[GreenMan]

In the ACBL, that should is more strong, by regulation: "Unless instructed otherwise by a tournament director, a member of each side must be present and seated before cards are removed from a board." General Conditions of Contest for All Events, PLAY, 9.

 

Hmm, I had forgotten that was there. In a Swiss I sometimes pull cards out and start shuffling while I'm waiting for the opps to arrive, but I don't start dealing until they do. (I also turn a card in each board as soon as I get to the table.) Now I see I've been doing it wrong.

[McBruce]

Quite interesting information, but for a different reason: What is the expected life of your card packs?

 

I have been supplying machine-dealt boards since 1990 with the same boards being re-dealt and used about 50 times a year. We have an absolute rule that my customers may never shuffle and deal boards manually. My experience is that I shall have to replace boards after some 20 to 25 years, and I believe other suppliers of machine dealt boards have similar experiences.

 

Compare that to the expected life of cards in clubs where they shuffle and deal cards manually for each event, they typically have to replace their cards each year or so.

 

So whatever event, Swiss or otherwise, my customers receive and use machine-dealt boards for the complete events. In the long run that pays off for everybody.

 

 

 

 

In this neck of the woods we have the PlayBridge duplicating machine that reads not barcodes but the actual card corners. We also have a supplier who makes excellent aluminum boards and supplies decent plastic cards. I am told that the process is faster with the flip-top boards but I have never used one. But the supplier takes the same 20-40 sets around to various week-long tournaments in the area, perhaps 15-20 in a year, and thus they are used much more than 50 times a year. Most ACBL regional tournaments will see each set used at least ten times over the course of 18 sessions in seven days.

 

 

I would guess that the cards should be replaced about once every 12-18 months, but this doesn't happen and I spend the first day of every tournament doing two things simultaneously: preduplicating the first 3-4 sessions worth of needed sets (for pair games only, not Swiss or KO), and removing the older cards that the machine has trouble identifying, and putting these into board sets that will be assigned to the KO area of the room for most of the week.

 

I know that in Europe and other non-ACBL areas preduplicated boards are expected, but at the largest regionals here I sometimes make 20-25 sets of boards (1-36 usually) for one day's pair events alone, and this is only half of the people who play: the KO and Swiss events are about the same number of tables. To cover all of them we would need multiple machines and operators. We would also need to teach players and caddies the procedures used where predupes are available for KOs and Swisses, which is something that ACBL players do very poorly (since it would involve listening and following instructions instead of doing it the way we did it in 1958). For the final A/X Swiss I often make five sets of 32 boards for the top ten teams in the Flight A event, so that the top ten teams* can have preduplicated boards. I'm guessing that in Norway, five sets of eight would cover twenty tables (ten matches), each table getting two to start with and pass down a table when done. Here the TDs insist on each match having its own set of boards, because the players would never figure out such an unusual system.

 

*Another interesting problem is that ACBLScore matches teams on the fly, before all results are in, and the TDs actually have to guess what VP Score will put a team into the top ten, meriting predupes!

 

With the PlayBridge machines, and I guess the newer Jannerstens that read the indices instead of the bar codes, the biggest problem with cards becomes fading indices. A missing speck on a spade symbol can make it look like a club or even a diamond (the optical reader does not see colour). Much of the time the card works with a 180 switch, but when you have three or more such cards in a deck, the time it takes goes way up. I think the machines would be much better if they had two optical readers, one for each corner, the second one being used if the first read was doubtful.

[pran]

Some facts from Norway:

 

Mitchell-style events are never played (well, you could meet one exceptionally, but that would be a great surprise to the contestants and they would certainly not appreciate it unless having been told so in advance).

 

Events (whether for teams or pairs) are always played as barometer, i.e. rounds with the same boards are played simultaneously at all tables (and scored immediately after each round).

 

With 2 Boards/round we normally provide each table with a complete set of boards for the round, i.e. the number of duplicates equals the number of tables. (For the largest event I was involved in we provided 43 sets of 170 Boards.)

 

With 3 Boards/round we may provide each table with a complete set of boards for the round, but more common in ordinary events is to provide a complete set for every two tables, i.e. the number of duplicates equals half the number of tables.

 

With more than 3 Boards/round we usually provide a number of boards expected to be sufficient (calculated according to a standard formula) and have the players exchange boards at centrally located table.

 

Events for teams are usually played with at least 8 Boards/round and it is not uncommon to have at least 10 teams playing series or at least 20 teams playing swiss simultaneously. As far as boards are concerned these events are provided with boards in exactly the same way as events for pairs.

 

The older duplicating machines in Norway read bar codes, newer machines read corner symbols and I am not aware that the life expectancy for the cards differs between these versions. Both machine types have proved very reliable.

[blackshoe]

One of my colleagues commented that "I bet they're using plastic cards [in Norway]". We're not here. The local organization is not gonna spring for plastic cards. We have the bar code reading style of duplimate. That's not going to be upgraded. We have 18 board sets. The local organization isn't gonna spring for more board sets. We have some ten games a week here, most averaging around 8 to 10 tables. One game averages about 30 to 35 tables. Mitchells are common. Web movements were recently introduced, and the directors seem to like them. Everything else, including barometers, is rare. We don't use pre-duplicated boards for team games, which we have occasionally. Infrequently enough that I couldn't state an average number of tables for them.

[pran]

One of my colleagues commented that "I bet they're using plastic cards [in Norway]". We're not here. The local organization is not gonna spring for plastic cards. We have the bar code reading style of duplimate. That's not going to be upgraded. We have 18 board sets. The local organization isn't gonna spring for more board sets. We have some ten games a week here, most averaging around 8 to 10 tables. One game averages about 30 to 35 tables. Mitchells are common. Web movements were recently introduced, and the directors seem to like them. Everything else, including barometers, is rare. We don't use pre-duplicated boards for team games, which we have occasionally. Infrequently enough that I couldn't state an average number of tables for them.

You should accept that bet and cash in, we don't!

[blackshoe]

You should accept that bet and cash in, we don't!

Heh. Well, then the only things I can think of that might explain the great difference in the lifetimes of our respective cards are: 1) Norwegians are inherently less messy than Americans or don't serve food at all during games or 2) in comparable sized events, you spread usage amongst many more boards than we do. Probably the latter. :D

 

We do have another problem I just thought of, which we are trying to correct: our players have got in the habit of taking a pen to the bar code of cards they consider "unacceptable", thus resulting in the requirement to replace an entire deck, possible earlier than should really be needed (we get a lot of "these cards are sticky" comments - probably related to the food issue).

 

RABA voted in their last meeting last year to increase the charge for pre-duplication from $4 per set to $5. I don't know how the club owners feel about that - it goes into effect today. I do know that a year or so ago, when a colleague checked around the country, he found that most places that charge for the service were charging $6 a set. I also know that our treasurer's analysis at that time of the income and expenditures related to the duplimating indicated that $4 per set was insufficient to cover the costs, which include the cost of printing hand records for the players.

[Vampyr]

 

. I'm guessing that in Norway, five sets of eight would cover twenty tables (ten matches), each table getting two to start with and pass down a table when done. Here the TDs insist on each match having its own set of boards, because the players would never figure out such an unusual system.

 

 

That's how we do it here. It is not really unusual, because boards are passed down a table in Mitchell movements (which we usually have for pair games that are not Swiss Pairs.)

 

 

*Another interesting problem is that ACBLScore matches teams on the fly, before all results are in, and the TDs actually have to guess what VP Score will put a team into the top ten, meriting predupes!

 

When I was at the Nationals, I saw that teams were matched in the labour-intensive old-fashioned way. We use Bridgemate 2, which gives you your assignments directly. This method is convenient for all. Also Swiss Teams run much more smoothly with the Australian system, but of course this is not an option if you don't have preduplicated boards. (If you decided to use the latter, you would get back some of the cost of another operator, since you wouldn't need caddies.)

 

 

We do have another problem I just thought of, which we are trying to correct: our players have got in the habit of taking a pen to the bar code of cards they consider "unacceptable", thus resulting in the requirement to replace an entire deck, possible earlier than should really be needed (we get a lot of "these cards are sticky" comments - probably related to the food issue).

 

This is outrageous. In England I would not be surprised if a played who defaced cards in that way were chucked out of the event.

RABA voted in their last meeting last year to increase the charge for pre-duplication from $4 per set to $5. I don't know how the club owners feel about that - it goes into effect today. I do know that a year or so ago, when a colleague checked around the country, he found that most places that charge for the service were charging $6 a set. I also know that our treasurer's analysis at that time of the income and expenditures related to the duplimating indicated that $4 per set was insufficient to cover the costs, which include the cost of printing hand records for the players.

 

Why don't clubs have their own machines? Here even once-a-week clubs usually have them,

[GreenMan]

When I was at the Nationals, I saw that teams were matched in the labour-intensive old-fashioned way.

 

The NAmerican Nationals? Someone on here once said that ACBLScore doesn't play well with the pads they use at NABCs, hence the manual entering of scores (though that's supposed to change with the next version of the software).

[blackshoe]

This is outrageous. In England I would not be surprised if a played who defaced cards in that way were chucked out of the event.

I suggested requiring the defacer to pay for the new deck, but I was ignored. :blink:

 

Why don't clubs have their own machines? Here even once-a-week clubs usually have them,

Simply put, they're too cheap. In their defense, it would require the club's sole proprietor to buy his machine out of his own pocket. There's only one club here that makes enough that might be possible, and she won't do it even if it is.

[aguahombre]

I would not characterize a Club which would have to pay $4K outlay for equipment and clears about 1K per year as "too cheap". Some clubs are not even privately owned, but rather a Bridge community-run organization which gives back any meager year-end profit to the players in the form of a party or such.

 

Proprietors who do make a bit of profit for their efforts can't exactly use it to buy a yacht. Perhaps there are places where there will be a high-rise built in the name of some Bridge corporation, but for the most part the idea is to provide a game for those who enjoy the game.

[GreenMan]

I would not characterize a Club which would have to pay $4K outlay for equipment and clears about 1K per year as "too cheap". Some clubs are not even privately owned, but rather a Bridge community-run organization which gives back any meager year-end profit to the players in the form of a party or such.

 

Proprietors who do make a bit of profit for their efforts can't exactly use it to buy a yacht. Perhaps there are places where there will be a high-rise built in the name of some Bridge corporation, but for the most part the idea is to provide a game for those who enjoy the game.

 

This. The club in one city where I used to live doesn't have the business to justify the expense, but it got one anyway, and provides sets of boards to nearby clubs for a fee. In effect, several organizers are sharing one machine.