learning fantunes

[gwnn]

After learning the 170-page book by Bill Jacobs (not) my p and I got in trouble on this board (MP, none vulnerable):

 

2♥*-2NT*

3♦-?

 

AQJxxx

Kx

xxx

Kx

 

Partner showed 5+ hearts and 4+ diamonds with 10-13 points (not 5422) while we showed an inv+ hand with spades so partner denied 3 cards in spades already.

 

3♥, 3♠ would both be non-forcing here while 4♣ is undiscussed but should be a COG I guess. At least this is what we would take them as, there is nothing in the 170-page book on this!

[DJNeill]

Looking at the notes on my page, it appears that you could try 2H-3S (forcing good 6+crd suit) to start, planning perhaps to remove 3N to 4H. Also, it is possible that in the real system 2H-2N-3m-3S is forcing (mild suit). The former has more solid evidence. You might want to transfer the book to notes, and then create your own notes to fill the holes in that version. Use my notes to guide you, though I haven't updated it in a year or so.

 

Thanks,

Dan

[Endymion77]

3♥ looks pretty obvious at MPs here - even though it's not forcing partner would rarely pass unless he has a real minimum with singleton spade. You can also just bid 4♠ and hope trumps to break well.

[patroclo]

After learning the 170-page book by Bill Jacobs (not) my p and I got in trouble on this board (MP, none vulnerable):

 

2♥*-2NT*

3♦-?

 

AQJxxx

Kx

xxx

Kx

 

Partner showed 5+ hearts and 4+ diamonds with 10-13 points (not 5422) while we showed an inv+ hand with spades so partner denied 3 cards in spades already.

 

3♥, 3♠ would both be non-forcing here while 4♣ is undiscussed but should be a COG I guess. At least this is what we would take them as, there is nothing in the 170-page book on this!

[patroclo]

try here http://www.fulviofantoni.com/en/risorse-rubriche/domande-risposte/chiedi-a-fulvio.html

[gwnn]

I'm not asking about the system (despite the thread title), I'm asking what you would bid with the hand assuming my description is correct.

[DJNeill]

I'm not asking about the system (despite the thread title), I'm asking what you would bid with the hand assuming my description is correct.

 

4H.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm not convinced you want to force to game here non vul, most of the time partner is 1543 here and if 4M is better than a 3-3 break, he will often bid game over 3 of whichever major you bid, and which major to bid is basically a guess.

[rhm]

3♠

 

Partner should raise with a maximum and two spades and almost always with Kx in spades.

Seems to me more likely that we belong in spades rather than hearts. I also want to protect the ♣K from the lead.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Free]

3♠, it's what we have is it not? Really awful that you don't have a way to force with ♠ somehow.

[dake50]

I try 3S. The worst case is partner has a 13 and we miss 4S on this 'scramble to our least bad' hand.

[RSClyde]

3♥ looks pretty obvious at MPs here - even though it's not forcing partner would rarely pass unless he has a real minimum with singleton spade. You can also just bid 4♠ and hope trumps to break well.

3♥ may end up working the best, but I have my doubts about it being "obvious".

[Endymion77]

3♥ may end up working the best, but I have my doubts about it being "obvious".

 

I prefer it to 3♠ because it gives opener the option to pass with a dead minimum with singleton spade, and show 2 spade cards by bidding 3♠ otherwise. But I don't really object to 3♠, the suit is reasonably good to play against singleton. I wouldn't really consider any other option at MPs, we've already invited and without a known fit we don't have enough to force game.

[gwnn]

I just realised after making this thread that the only case where partner can have 2 spades is 2641 as he promised already a shortness and denied 3541. I bid 3♥ at the table which got passed out, unfortunately partner miscounted his points (related to the classic French/Dutch confusion about what a V means) and made 11 tricks. Maybe 4♣ is the best option, at least if we get high we get high in the wrong major?

 

Free, it seems that you think we do have an invitational hand with spades but at the same time you think we have a GF hand with spades? Could you clarify?

[Cyberyeti]

I just realised after making this thread that the only case where partner can have 2 spades is 2641 as he promised already a shortness and denied 3541. I bid 3♥ at the table which got passed out, unfortunately partner miscounted his points (related to the classic French/Dutch confusion about what a V means) and made 11 tricks. Maybe 4♣ is the best option, at least if we get high we get high in the wrong major?

 

Free, it seems that you think we do have an invitational hand with spades but at the same time you think we have a GF hand with spades? Could you clarify?

 

Realised this early on (2551 also ?), I think 3♥ is right because if partner is 1642, hearts will often play better than spades, and partner can bid 3♠ with a 2551

[gwnn]

Oh yes, 2551 of course. #mathfail

[Free]

Free, it seems that you think we do have an invitational hand with spades but at the same time you think we have a GF hand with spades? Could you clarify?

On this hand I don't think we have a GF so it's not really relevant to the discussion (partner will raise with any kind of support anyway), but I found it worth mentioning since you'll encounter hands where you have real slam interest. It's a shame for any system not to be able to force with ♠. And I know the original system played by Fantunes does have that option (starting with 2♥-2NT if I remember correctly, and using 2♥-2♠ as a relay), which makes it even worse. What is 2♥-2♠ for you?

[gwnn]

We play 2H-2S as an inv+ relay and 2NT as inv+ with spades (as in the Jacobs book). It could well be that 3S is better as forcing but it's not obv to me. I have a feeling that these 2-level openings are never really going to have proper scientific basis so we might as well play it old style with lots of limit bids and punts.

[Zelandakh]

What does 2♥ - 2♠; AB - 3♠ mean? (where AB is presumably some call showing diamonds or strength range.) And partner can also have 2650 and 2740 (possibly also 2560) for shapes with 2 spades unless my counting ability is completely broken. Although perhaps 2740 would not show the diamonds...

[gwnn]

What does 2♥ - 2♠; AB - 3♠ mean? (where AB is presumably some call showing diamonds or strength range.) And partner can also have 2650 and 2740 (possibly also 2560) for shapes with 2 spades unless my counting ability is completely broken. Although perhaps 2740 would not show the diamonds...

3♦ shows 4 diamonds and 3♥ shows 5 diamonds (2NT shows 6 hearts, 3♣ shows 4+ clubs). 3♠ over any rebid is GF with spades. There should be a difference between the two of course, I suppose it's possible to play 2NT as strictly invitational with spades? But still it makes no sense to play 2NT as NF with 6 spades so why not put some GF hands in there as well.

 

With 74 we'd definitely show 6+ hearts as well as with most 6-4's I think. But 2650 is also true :) Awful maths. I can kind of blame Bill Jacobs for this as in the system files you can only describe the following shapes: 5431, 6322, 55xx. With other hands you kind of improvise. Not complaining of course, you started out on the 2-level already, it's already quite an achievement to describe all that.

[Zelandakh]

There should be a difference between the two of course

How about:

2♥ - 2♠; any - 3♠ = GF with 5 spades

2♥ - 3♠ = GF with 6+ spades and 2 hearts

2♥ - 2NT; any - 3NT = GF (and NF) with 6 spades and heart shortage

[JLOGIC]

I don't know the system at all but 3H seems normal? If partner is 2551 he can bid on with 3S, we went out of our way to show spades to begin with so it's not like we have 5 spades and 3 hearts ever. If we have 3 hearts our hand must be very spade oriented to go out of our way to show spades. Most of the time I'd assume we are 5-2 or 6-2, in which case 2551 should bid 3S (even if we do happen to be 5-3 somehow which I doubt is possible, 2551 is a very good shape opposite that and will probably want to play a game). I suspect you are not supposed to bid 2N with a 5-3 invite ever though, so that later heart bids imply a doubleton unless an extreme hand type like 6 good spades and 3 small hearts, much like in systems we are familiar with.

[JLOGIC]

A 6-1 spade fit might be better than a 5-2 heart fit, but partner could easily have 6 hearts (I assume?) and could easily have 0 spades so catering specifically to partner being 15xx and spades playing better than hearts is not a good choice imo.

[rhm]

A 6-1 spade fit might be better than a 5-2 heart fit, but partner could easily have 6 hearts (I assume?) and could easily have 0 spades so catering specifically to partner being 15xx and spades playing better than hearts is not a good choice imo.

I am not convinced.

Opener holding 1-5 in the majors is a probable holding, opener holding 6 hearts much less so. Since this is a bit of a guess frequencies matter.

Even with a void in spades, spades could play better because the six card suit is strong. I would not suggest 3♠ with a weaker suit.

One issue with opener bidding 3♠ over 3♥ is, that you will have to raise yourself to game, while partner might pass 3♠ with a doubleton spade and a bad hand for game.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

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