untrusted

[PassedOut]

Article in the Washington Post: Obama didnt know about surveillance of U.S.-allied world leaders until summer, officials say

 

White House officials said Obama was not told about the extent of the world leader surveillance program before this summer because briefings are tailored to the presidents priorities. Iran, China, counterterrorism and other concerns ranked ahead of an accounting of intelligence collected about leaders of allied nations such as Germany, the officials said.

 

They said the issue came up only after news reports of NSA spying in Brazil and in Mexico, among other countries. Obama asked for information on what exactly the agency was doing in those allied countries and in others.

 

The review and briefings to Obama on the first findings began soon after. His decision to curtail the program was disclosed late Sunday by the Wall Street Journal.

 

The latest revelations have sparked new outrage over NSA activities, particularly in Europe, which was already fuming at the clandestine collection of communications data. The breadth of the anger at U.S. prying, and the degree to which Obama is seen as responsible, may have been summed up by a rare English headline on the opinion page of the French daily Le Monde on Monday. No You Cant, it reads, a reference to the 2008 Obama campaign slogan and to French ire over his actions since.

I find it disturbing in many ways to learn that this went on without the knowledge of the president of the US nor of the congressional oversight committees. This situation exemplifies bad management in both the executive branch and the intelligence agencies.

[blackshoe]

I am not convinced that Obama didn't know. In my view this administration will say anything to take the heat off him.

 

OTOH, as secretive as the NSA is, maybe they "forgot" to tell the people in charge what they were doing. :unsure:

[mycroft]

I am not convinced that the President didn't know. Possibly that the President didn't understand what was being told him in all of the "non-lie answers" that seem to be SOP around now. Don't care, either; just because the sign's not on the desk any more doesn't mean it don't stop there.

 

Having said that, keeping secrets and "need to know" is a hard habit to learn, and a hard habit to break even when the law requires it; and there are several layers between the top and the problem. Add to that the comments about "there's a procedure, you don't go outside the chain" - "yeah, and the procedure involves burying it, and the reporter, and keepin' on truckin'" (or cupboards, disused lavatories, and leopards, perhaps) that don't surprise me in the slightest, and it's very reasonable that "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful" (to quote The Plan - language warning if you've never seen it and go searching) by the time it gets anywhere near the Oval Office.

 

And it's not just bureaucrats - the whole government has been playing the mushroom game with the public for 50 years; it's just now becoming more obvious than before that the rot has been seeping inside (but Yes, Minister was from 1980). Of course, all the arguments that secret laws ruled secretly in secret courts would lead to people breaking those, because after all, who would notice...are coming home to roost.

 

I don't give the President the blame, necessarily; but it's his responsibility to lead the cleanup. And I very much doubt he will. And in these matters, the only difference I see between D and R is that "it's legal because we say it is" has been replaced with "we won't do it after you catch us" - so I expect worse, not better, with a change.

[blackshoe]

I read an article today that claims that Obama's problem is that he was abused as a child, and so he needs to control everything. I dunno about that, but it would explain a lot if it were true.

[1eyedjack]

I have no doubt that the Europe is spying on the USA every bit as much as the reverse.

[kenberg]

I have no doubt that the Europe is spying on the USA every bit as much as the reverse.

 

Probably they are not tapping Obama's phone, but whether that is dure to restraint or lack of the technical ability to do so may be open to question.

 

I believe ins science, technology, progress, all that stuff, and it happens and will continue to happen whether I believe in it or not. Whether we are speaking of atomic weaponry, genetic engineering, or cybertechnology there are opportunities and there dangers. We need to formulate some principles.While I realize that security and economics are niter-linked, it would appeal to me to try to de-link them for the purposes of cyber-spying. It's going to be tough.

 

My guess is that the next 9-11 will not be planes into buildings, it will be some sort of very substantial cyber attack. I gather that we already have done something along these lines in disrupting Iran's nuclear program. What goes around... Anyway, it's the world we live in and we have to live in it.

 

Listening in on Angela Merkel's cell phone is over the top. But how did we even get in that neighborhood? In my youth, 1984 was in the distant future, not the past. I see that the NSA's Alexander asserts that some of the intelligence gathering that caused such a flap a while back was actually a NATO operation or operations by individual NATO countries and shared with us. (I don't think he claims it was NATO bugging Merkel though.) Exact details are vague, but it would be naive to think that we are the only ones engaged in electronic surveillance at a very advanced and extensive level.

 

For starters, it's always good to acknowledge reality. Reality is that we have lots and lots of electronic eavesdropping, and, I believe, some very substantial electronic dangers. How to handle this is not clear, but simply accepting "Trust us, we're the good guys" probably isn't enough.

 

Henry Stimson, back in the 1930s, supposedly said that gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail. That could be the definition of wishful thinking. But we are just getting too damn good at it, and we have to bring it under some sort of control.

[blackshoe]

Henry Stimson, back in the 1930s, supposedly said that gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail. That could be the definition of wishful thinking.

Or it could be a reflection of a change in the concept of "gentlemen".

[barmar]

There's spying going on here? I'm shocked!

Heard someone on NPR yesterday make the same analogy. I don't know whether it was the commentator himself, or if he was quoting an official.

[billw55]

I am not convinced that Obama didn't know. In my view this administration will say anything to take the heat off him.

 

OTOH, as secretive as the NSA is, maybe they "forgot" to tell the people in charge what they were doing. :unsure:

To me it is a situation where either alternative is eminently plausible. The president and his administration lie about what he/they did/did not know? Sure, I can believe that. Career intelligence workers consider fully informing 4- or 8-year presidents to be nonessential? Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

[PassedOut]

To me it is a situation where either alternative is eminently plausible. The president and his administration lie about what he/they did/did not know? Sure, I can believe that. Career intelligence workers consider fully informing 4- or 8-year presidents to be nonessential? Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

I remember as a youth being shocked to learn that president Eisenhower had plainly lied about the U-2 spy plane shot down by the Soviet Union. Until then, I had truly believed that the lies always came from the other direction. I remember recalibrating my thinking on the matter then and there.

 

Even now, if I find that someone in business has lied to me, I'm done with that person. Forever.

[mike777]

I can understand being against spying, but understand wanting to gather information, policy positions, and wanting to understand political leaders and their nonpublic objectives. Let us just not call it spying but a systematic method of data collection.

 

 

Even Germany, France, Spain and the Brits must be for that assuming they have the resources and money to spend to get it.

[barmar]

Even now, if I find that someone in business has lied to me, I'm done with that person. Forever.

It's usually relatively easy to take your business to their competitor. Harder to do that with governments.

 

And if everyone lies, you're just trading the devil you know for the devil you don't know.

[PassedOut]

It's usually relatively easy to take your business to their competitor. Harder to do that with governments.

 

And if everyone lies, you're just trading the devil you know for the devil you don't know.

Yes, governments are different, and so is family...

[blackshoe]

There is a very interesting discussion of trust in, of all places, John Ringo's novel The Last Centurion. Basically, there are two kinds of trust: general trust and familial trust. In a general trust society, you tend to trust people until they prove untrustworthy. In a familial trust society, you trust family, and no one else. Ringo gives an example: your neighbor asks to borrow your lawnmower. You're from a general trust society, so you lend it to him. If he's from a general trust society, he'll give it back when he's done with it, or if he doesn't, he will when you ask him for it. If he breaks it, he'll pay for that. If he's from a familial trust society, though, he won't give it back when he's done with it, and when you ask him for it, he'll tell you he lent it to his cousin on the other side of town. As for getting it back, forget it. And if he breaks it, well, too bad. In effect, as far as he's concerned, you're not family, and he's not family to you, and so if you're dumb enough to loan him your lawnmower, as far as he's concerned you gave it to him, and he can do what he wants with it. The US is mostly a general trust society (though I suspect that may be changing). Non-western societies are mostly familial trust.

 

I suspect the concept is applicable at the level of international relations, too.

[PassedOut]

Mr Snowden is a man of merit not only for this what he is already showed to the world, but either for that what he still keeps secret.

Obama's administration is so not in the position to lie in this affair, they say either truth or keep silent ( mostly). Every single lie could

provoke that another "jewel" from Snowdens collection will find the way to the world press and nail the lie.

Yes, Snowden has put a spotlight on what has been going on in many places: Edward Snowden papers unmask close technical cooperation and loose alliance between British, German, French, Spanish and Swedish spy agencies

 

The German, French, Spanish and Swedish intelligence services have all developed methods of mass surveillance of internet and phone traffic over the past five years in close partnership with Britain's GCHQ eavesdropping agency.

 

The bulk monitoring is carried out through direct taps into fibre optic cables and the development of covert relationships with telecommunications companies. A loose but growing eavesdropping alliance has allowed intelligence agencies from one country to cultivate ties with corporations from another to facilitate the trawling of the web, according to GCHQ documents leaked by the former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

 

The files also make clear that GCHQ played a leading role in advising its European counterparts how to work around national laws intended to restrict the surveillance power of intelligence agencies.

 

The German, French and Spanish governments have reacted angrily to reports based on National Security Agency (NSA) files leaked by Snowden since June, revealing the interception of communications by tens of millions of their citizens each month. US intelligence officials have insisted the mass monitoring was carried out by the security agencies in the countries involved and shared with the US.

 

The US director of national intelligence, James Clapper, suggested to Congress on Tuesday that European governments' professed outrage at the reports was at least partly hypocritical. "Some of this reminds me of the classic movie Casablanca: 'My God, there's gambling going on here,' " he said.

Yes, we in the US have got plenty of work to do to get these intrusions under control. But we are not alone in that...

[Aberlour10]

Yes, Snowden has put a spotlight on what has been going on in many places: Edward Snowden papers unmask close technical cooperation and loose alliance between British, German, French, Spanish and Swedish spy agencies

 

 

Yes, we in the US have got plenty of work to do to get these intrusions under control. But we are not alone in that...

 

Surely, but there is still difference between development of the technological capabilities ( in case of german secret services ) and unlimited monitoring ,sucking of the data all over the globe.

 

Cascablanca quote? OK

 

This describe the situation more appriorate IMO : A schoolboy steals compact disc in the store while other thief cheats thousands of people cashing millions. "What a crimes"!!!!! cries somebody.

 

US politcans should not use the word "hypocritical" so easy. Remebering their often complains about chinese spy activities in the last years. With the current knowledge the world can only laugh aboutthis dissembling.

[PassedOut]

This describe the situation more appriorate IMO : A schoolboy steals compact disc in the store while other thief cheats thousands of people cashing millions. "What a crime"!!!!! cries somebody.

 

US politicians should not use the word "hypocritical" so easy.

You are right that we in the US need to clamp down on our government's eavesdropping, which appears to be more extensive than most other countries have yet been able to achieve (though not, it seems, for lack of trying). However, considering that the US got eavesdropping information about German citizens from the German government itself, the German complaints do seem just a bit hypocritical.

 

Suppose a schoolboy steals a compact disc and then gives a copy of it to another thief. Wouldn't it be hypocritical for the schoolboy then to throw a tantrum when he finds out that the other thief has a collection of stolen compact disks?

[kenberg]

Surely, but there is still difference between development of the technological capabilities ( in case of german secret services ) and unlimited monitoring ,sucking of the data all over the globe.

 

Casablanca quote? OK

 

This describe the situation more appropriate IMO : A schoolboy steals compact disc in the store while other thief cheats thousands of people cashing millions. "What a crimes"!!!!! cries somebody.

 

US politicians should not use the word "hypocritical" so easy. Remembering their often complains about chinese spy activities in the last years. With the current knowledge the world can only laugh about this dissembling.

 

In general I am not fond of the "oh, but look what you did first" defense. If we were to make comparisons, maybe Jonathan Pollard comes to mind, as he is in U.S. prison for spying for Israel. He did it the old fashioned way, copying documents. We don't like being spied on, it's reasonable to assume mothers don't either. It's naive to think others don't spy, and if other nations are not eavesdropping on Obama, I think one possible reason is that they have not been able to do it. I am very skeptical of any idea that the heads of other intelligence agencies would reject it on moral grounds.

 

I think that we have a common interest in discussion of electronic surveillance. The capacity will increase, not decrease. And, as operations against Iran demonstrate, it is not just surveillance. This is going to become ever more complicated, so score the debating points that you wish to score, and then there can be some thoughts about what to actually do.

[Vampyr]

The row over alleged spying [uS on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.

 

 

 

Seriously?

[PassedOut]

The row over alleged spying [uS on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.

 

Seriously?

I guess "living memory" is a variable being used as a constant.

<_<

[Trinidad]

The row over alleged spying [uS on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

If the life expectancy in the UK is that short, maybe that NHS isn't that good after all. ;)

 

Rik

[mycroft]

I would suggest that, barring Clauswitz' Maxim, previous "diplomatic crises" ended up being less-than diplomatic.

 

Having said that, depending on what we define as Germany, we could probably list the Air Lift - theoretically it was between U.S. (and others) and (East) Germany (and OTHERS).

 

But yeah, that's hyperbole of overarching measure. OTOH, U.K. journalists and superinjunction-seeking lawyers are really trying to draw a line on "living memory" above Mr. Murdoch's little foible, and Messrs. A, B, etc. and Mss. C, D, etc.

[Aberlour10]

The row over alleged spying [uS on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

Yes and No

 

If we consieder what german politicans said to the public opinion in last weak >>>>YES

 

If we consider what they de facto doing in this case, its clear >>>>NO

 

These are completely different "pairs of shoe"

 

 

They have to give strong statements to the german public opinion to avoid giving the impression, that they are acting like Washington's vassals.

In their real doing they try all to avoid "too much knowing" about NSA acting, not to get too close with Mr Snowdon, despite of fact he would be ready to told all to the german parliament commission. They try a hard split between saying and acting. Business as usual

[Vampyr]

If we consieder what german politicans said to the public opinion in last weak >>>>YES

 

Maybe the German politicians should think back a little further.

 

In fact, I wonder whether Germany has the right yet to criticise anything any country is doing.

[Aberlour10]

Maybe the German politicians should think back a little further.

 

In fact, I wonder whether Germany has the right yet to criticise anything any country is doing.

 

Do you mean Germany should get this right in >>>

 

a) 100 years

b) 250 years

c) 500 years

d) Never

 

after 1945?