Development after 1x-dbl-rdbl

[flytoox]

Suppse you opened 1x, and LHO dbled, pd rdbled, RHO might bid or pass, what should you do? Do you normally pass and wait? Or you just ignore it if you have some shape? IN particular, what will you do if:

 

1) What if RHO run

2) RHO pass?

 

I met this problem today when playing with a random pd. I opened 1h with:

S: AJXX

H: AKTXX

D: AX

C: XX

 

THE BID GOES: 1H-DBL-RDBL-1N(RUN TO MINOR)-?

 

I passed, knowing pd will do sth. But strangly, all passed 1N, so op played 1n without dbl.

 

In this sequence with the given hand, I have strong hand and good spade, which LHO is supposed to have by dbl. Shall I dbl RHO's 1N or wait to see the development? With random pd, I would say most players dont have much discussion about this kind situation. What is the default agreement then? Many thanks.

[Codo]

1. I thought, that it is common sense, that XX shows the majority of the points. SO they should never be allowed to play 1 NT undoubled.

But this is clearly your Pds fault, he had the last bid.

 

With your hand I had doubled 1 NT and think, that this should show more then just 11 shaggy points and interessts in playing 1 NT X.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[lifemonster]

Hi flytoox:

I think that a double by you, against the 1NT bid, shows "at least penalty in one of the minor", since the bid shows minors.

 

This is similar to partner open 1major, RHO bid 2NT unusual and you double, showing penalty in at least one of the minors.

 

Therefore, you pass of 1NT is fine to me. It's ur random pd's fault. He should simply double 1NT and since you've already denied stack in one of the minors then after opponents running to either 2C/2D he could judge what to do.

[pbleighton]

What does everyone think about stretching just a bit and reversing into 2 spades?

[inquiry]

1) After the redouble, I agree with Roland that they simply can not play 1NT undoubled. Your pass of 1NT is a forcing pass, and your partner made a mistake either passing 1NT or redoubling to begin with.

 

2) I agree that if 1NT is alerted as asking doubler to pick a minor, a double with your hand would shows a desire to hit at least one of their run out suits in the minors. Since you have no strong desire to double 2C or 2D rather than bid on.

 

As for reversing into 2Spades. NO. There are four spades behind you, you have no sure fit, your partner expressed a willingness to at least consider doubling the opponents. If after you pass, and LHO bids 2 of a minor... if your partner doesn't double, then ok, then you bid 2S and find your best game.

 

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Many years ago i read from one polish magazine about 1x-dbl-rdbl: penalty in 2(3) suits, pass and dbl later - 4333, and still play it. It make clear that all dbls after rdbl are with 4 cards in opp suit penalty. After pass and dbl later all dbl are optional. rdbl is ofcourse forcing and opp will not play with pass. If some of partners after rdbl or late dbl didnt wait and bidded he show at least 6+/5-5/6-4 and very offensive hand.

Note: Disadvantage of this convention is that from reopen (last) position you cannot reopen with dbl.

Misho

[inquiry]

Many years ago i read from one polish magazine about 1x-dbl-rdbl: penalty in 2(3) suits, pass and dbl later - 4333, and still play it. It make clear that all dbls after rdbl are with 4 cards in opp suit penalty. After pass and dbl later all dbl are optional. rdbl is ofcourse forcing and opp will not play with pass. If some of partners after rdbl or late dbl didnt wait and bidded he show at least 6+/5-5/6-4 and very offensive hand.

Note: Disadvantage of this convention is that from reopen (last) position you cannot reopen with dbl.

Misho

 

An interesting treatment, for which I agree. For partner of the redoubler to bid again immediately, he must be showing a very offensive hand (which is reason 1 you don't bid over 1NT). On this hand, the redoubler has to do something over 1NT, clearly this will be double as the redouble setup a forcing pass situation. But let's assume that doubler did as requested and bid his better minor....

 

1H-X-XX-1NT

P-2C-?

 

What is XX to do now and how did opener's pass over 1NT help clarify the follow up auctions? With doubleton club, redoubler might as well bid his best suit. Why? His partner's pass over 1NT shows no strong desire to double either escape suit (or esle would double). So they have found at least an 8 card fit. If opener had four clubs, he would have doubled 2C's. What should redoubler do with four clubs? Double of course. How about with three clubs? Pass, following the advice Misho and the polish article gave. If redoulber passes 2C, and the auction will obviously continue....

 

1H-X-XX-1NT

P-2C-P-P

?

 

What is opener to do? His partner lacks 4+ clubs (or double 2C), he doesn't have 2Clubs (or he bids over 2Cs after the pass over 1NT). So now he can apply the law and logic. His partner has 3 clubs, if he himself has 2 clubs, they have an 8 card fit and bidding is best. If opener has 3 clubs, now he can at least consider a double as they are in a 7 card fit.

 

Look how much more confusing it is if opener doubles 1NT

"because they can't make that"...

 

1H-X-XX-1NT-X-2C-? How many clubs does opener have? Does he want to hit 2C's? Responder without a clear penalty double will have to pass to give opener a chance to double 2C. When it comes back to opener? What infererence can he draw about responders pass of 2C? Could responder have a singel club and be waiting to see if opener wanted to double 2Cs? Could responder have 3Clubs, but doing the same? No, doubling 1NT causes more problem for the opening side. Pass and wait see wait to see what happens.. they can not play 1NT undoubled (at least in theory...) :)

 

As far as needing a reopeing takeout double, after the redouble, it is not necessary. Since forcing pass is in operation, if neither of you can double for penatly, you just bid your cheaper suits up the line looking for your own fit. Their two suited takout actually helps you double 2C when you are 3-3 in clubs... something that is a little harder to do if you just bid 2C immediately.

 

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben B) ! I mean reopen after you pass opp dbl. Example: 1SP-dbl-pass(!)-2CL, pass-pass-dbl(optional, not take out). Here you lose reopen dbl :-.

The only way i know to not discuss all millions bidding sequences is to have general agreements and they must be universal, simple and reasonable. With all my p i play optional dbl ( have hcp for level of bidding, havent any other bid: fit, suit(s), penalty dbl ...). I also play that each next dbl show more hcp - if both p bid - 2+hcp, if alone second dbl - 4+hcp and more defensive hand. After first penalty dbl or penalty pass all next dbl are penalty too. After first optional dbl, all direct dbl are optional too.

Back to bids in post:

1x-dbl-rdbl-1NT, pass/dbl(2+hcp)-2CL-? Here both opener or rdbl_er can dbl for penalty, optional dbl is not possible after rdbl in my way of bidding.

Misho

[tangent]

Generally, I find it easiest to play that XX is forcing to 2 of openers suit. It may make sense to play it forcing to 2NT too.

 

Reversing into 2S would be helping the opponents. They are already in trouble.