What Rebid best describes the hand

[badderzboy]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saqxhkxxdxxckq10xx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

This was a live hand which generated some interesting discussion about some fellow BILlie standard players.

 

You are playing Acol with Weak NT 12-14 and your partner bids 1♣ natural

 

What do you rebid as you have to make a false bid (too strong for 3NT directly) :)

 

My feeling is to bid 1♦ for a number of reasons I need to make a delayed game raise looking for NT's,I don't want partner to raise a major bid to game and I really want to deflect a diamond lead!

 

You could bid 3♦ as stopper asking for NT but then you're ignoring the possibility of a club slam etc?

 

My fellow BILlies were horrified that I'd bid a 2 card suit here but if partner raises it I bid 3NT anyway <_<

 

What would you do and what criteria do you use when selecting a false bid?

 

Steve

[hotShot]

This is one of those hands that might hit a systems weak spot.

 

Obviously you don't play inverted minors, where a simple 2♣ bid could save you now.

There are two cases to consider:

 

1) your partner is weak(minimum), but does not have a distribution that allows him to open 1NT.

So what could his distribution be? Partner would have bid a 5card major first since he's weak. So the distribution is ether 4441 or 5431 with five ♣'s. If the single is in ♦ you might make 5/6♣ but never 3NT.

If you bid ♦ your p will assume that you stop that suit und you may end in NT with no chance making it. So i would bid 1♥ so that P can bid 1♠ if it's his second suit or he bids 2♣, if he has 3-♥ and 3-♠.

 

2) your partner has a strong hand

He's in no trouble to find a bid, and he will bid on. (And he will have a ♦ stop most of the time.)

If you bid 1♦ there is no risk now, but nothing can happen after 1♥ as well.

After 1♥ you partner can additionally bid 1NT (strong) or even 2♦ reverse to show his strength.

 

I do not have a problem with ♦ being only 2 cards, if you'd have a sure stop there e.g. KD or Ax.

But with xx you need partners input on ♦.

[Chamaco]

I do not know ACOL, but I believe you made the best possible bid.

 

In Italy, some players who play 2/1 with Walsh responses to 1C opening (e.g. with non-GF hands, bid a 4 card major instead of a 5+ diamond suit ) , do alert 1D response to 1C as "natural OR strong without major". In the latter case, responder might NOT have diamonds.

 

I believe best would be to add this "small trick" in your convention card.

[luis]

If I'm forced to bid a suit that is not clubs with this hand I'd choose the best suit I have so I bid 1 spade.

Maybe I'm just too simple :-) you gave a lot of well thought reasons for your bid my only reason is that spades is my best suit after clubs so I admit that your bid may probably work better.

But just imagine your dear pd correcting 5c to 5d or 6c to 6d :-)

[mr1303]

Playing weak NT, you really DON'T want to be looking for 3NT. Since partner either has a strong NT with 4+ clubs, or 5+ clubs unbalanced (if partner is 4414 there are a lot of diamonds not being bid by opponents). What would 2NT be here? If you play Baron 2NT after 1 of a minor, like lots of Acol players do (Acol is a revolting system btw) then that's the lie I'll tell, and correct 3NT to 4C as a slam try.

[Wackojack]

Not a good hand for Acol unless you play inverted minors. I would be inclined to respond 1♦ as you did. If pd rebids 1M, then I would bid the other M (4th suit forcing). Then pd will clarify his hand and hopefully the best spot will become evident. If pd rebids 1NT 15-16 or 15-17), I would bid 3NT hoping we haven't missed a slam. If pd rebids 2NT, I would bang 6♣. If pd rebids 2♦, I would bid 3NT. <_<

[han]

If I'm forced to bid a suit that is not clubs with this hand I'd choose the best suit I have so I bid 1 spade.

Maybe I'm just too simple :-) you gave a lot of well thought reasons for your bid my only reason is that spades is my best suit after clubs so I admit that your bid may probably work better.

But just imagine your dear pd correcting 5c to 5d or 6c to 6d :-)

I'm with Luis here, even though 1D or 1H might work just as well or even better on a given hand. Any time you lie there is a chance that partner is going to take your bid very seriously, so the smaller the lie you make, the better. If partner is stubborn and you end up playing in spades, it could easily be right, if you end up playing in diamonds, you know you are going to get a bad score.

[the hog]

This is easily solved if you play inverted minors. If you don't play inverted minors, then many Acol players use 3 of the other minor to show this sort of hand - 13-15, no 4 card Major and 4+ cards support. I certainly would not bid a non existent suit such as 1D/H/S. If you do, you deserve partner raising it to the game level. Now don't tell me a subsequent C bid is not forcing, because I don't believe you.

 

If I had none of those gadgets at my disposal, I would bid the obvious 3NT. Certainly not a Baron 2NT followed by a 4C slam try. This sterile shape 14 count is a long way from a slam invitation, even opposite a 15-16 NT hand. Please don't start the nonsense about wrong siding the contract. I would rather play in a sensible spot than mislead partner with fake bids.

 

Quote mr1303:

"(Acol is a revolting system btw)"

 

As someone who "cut his teeth on Acol", I find this comment amusing. I would be interested in the rationale behind this assertion. Could you please explain? Acol is an excellent system by the way, far better than Sayc and in my opinion preferable, (with tweaking), to 2/1. However you do need to think in the auction.

 

Quote hotshot:

"So what could his distribution be? Partner would have bid a 5card major first since he's weak. So the distribution is ether 4441 or 5431 with five ♣'s."

 

Not at all. Partner can have 3244 3244 3334 shapes as well as hands with 5C. I suspect that a number of posters who have replied to this do not or have never played Acol. Be aware that a 12-14 NT throughout is not necessarily part of Acol, though I will admit it is becoming more common. Variable NTs and 15-17 throughout are still played and the NT opening of course impacts on the rest of the system.

[Free]

I would rather choose for 1♥, and hope partner bids 1♠ so I can ask for a ♦ stopper. If he bids NT, it's probably better.

If partner supports ♥, then I bid 3NT and that's to play (otherwise we have help suit trials and other stuff to play in ♥)

[Fluffy]

3 card major before 2 card ♦ even through I do play walsh, I would pick 1♥ because it saves space is a good lead missdirecting if we end as suposed in 3NT.

 

Note that tehway I play partner will never ever raise my ♥ with 3 cards.

[mr1303]

My apologies for not answering your question Hog

 

The reason I don't like Acol is with hands like this:

 

AKxxx

xxx

J

AKxx

 

when partner bids 2D after my 1S opening, I can't rebid 2S as forcing.

 

I also hate having to open 1H on 3433 16 counts. When partner bids 1NT, I now don't know whether to look for a game, which usually ends up in 1 off in 2NT, or pass, with 9 tricks cold. I also hate having to invent suits to establish a force (also a problem in SAYC, but I'm going to limit this to Acol).

 

I live in the UK, and started off learning bridge by playing exclusively Acol for the first 4 years. This is why I have come to dislike it.

 

I accept that Acol can be improved on with lots of discussion, but the more you change it the less like Acol the system becomes

[badderzboy]

PS Just a BILlie and I know you're a far superior / better player (honest) but I must admit I prefer ACOL to SAYC for the natural nature of all the bids and the pre-emptive value of the weak NT..

 

The reason I don't like Acol is with hands like this:

 

AKxxx

xxx

J

AKxx

 

when partner bids 2D after my 1S opening, I can't rebid 2S as forcing.

 

I would bid either 3♣ or 2NT here forcing, partner can bid 3♠ with 3 card support after either bid? :huh:

 

What do u do with

Kxxxxx

xx

J

AKxx

if 2♠ is forcing as a matter of interest? :(

 

I also hate having to open 1H on 3433 16 counts. When partner bids 1NT, I now don't know whether to look for a game, which usually ends up in 1 off in 2NT, or pass, with 9 tricks cold. I also hate having to invent suits to establish a force (also a problem in SAYC, but I'm going to limit this to Acol).

 

Yes agree with the 3433 hand and I'd pass any 1NT bid - awful shape for 3NT even with a max from partner and yes I lost 7 Imps in a team match recently with exactly this scenario ? :huh:

 

 

Advantage of strong NT but also lets opps bid 1S if they can...

Acols advantage here is that if you open a major then you have at least 5 or a strongish hand and 1NT is nicely pre-emptive... :)

 

I live in the UK, and started off learning bridge by playing exclusively Acol for the first 4 years. This is why I have come to dislike it.

 

I live in the UK too and started with SAYC for 6 months o/line then 'had' to switch to ACOL for the last 2 years to play regularly F2F I suspect you see the failiing of the old and benefits of the new when u switch as I much prefer ACOL! :ph34r:

 

I accept that Acol can be improved on with lots of discussion, but the more you change it the less like Acol the system becomes

 

Very True :)

[Wackojack]

I must also defend Acol. I can't say that I have discovered a deal discussed in these forums where Acol has been any worse than SAYC. On the other hand I have just spotted a deal SAYC "Bid this game " quoted below which has 2 pages of discussion on how 2/1 might or might not bid game. This was the hand:

 

♠ AKJxx.....Qxx

♥ JTx.........x

♦ x............AJ9x

♣ KJxx.......Qxxxx

 

Any decent Acol players would have no difficulty with this:

1S 2C

3C 3S

4S p

 

I am amazed that eminent players were making excuses for not getting beyond 2S.

 

IMO Acol with tweaks and handled correctly is an excellent system.

[inquiry]

I must also defend Acol.

SAYC would bid the hand the same way...

[mr1303]

Maybe the hand I gave as an example wasn't very good, but I want to be able to rebid my suit at the 2 level, and not have partner holding a singleton to pass it "because it looked like a misfit"

 

Even more so, I hate that:

 

1S 2D

3D

 

is not forcing, and that with stronger hands you have to jump to 4D. Uggghhh.

 

You can make it forcing, but the more you change it the less Acol it becomes. Weak NT 4 card major systems aren't necessarily bad.

 

And my biggest peeve of them all:

 

 

1C 1H

3NT

 

Shows exactly 19 balanced HCP